ProSoundWeb Community

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Pages: 1 2 [All]   Go Down

Author Topic: First Timer Club PA Design  (Read 4704 times)

Zack Bowman

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8
First Timer Club PA Design
« on: October 22, 2012, 08:12:12 pm »

Hello. I am humbled by all of your knowledge. Let it be known that I am young and still "wet behind the ears" in regard to large-scale systems, so give me a break if I seem ignorant. Also, let me know if this is in the wrong forum, or if I am even on the wrong site completely.

I have recently been asked to assist in designing and implementing a system for a new local dance club. I would like input and advice on what I have planned thus:

The club is in a rough L-shape and using "leg terminology"; The majority of it being in the "leg". The "foot" would be a Pool table area to the left of the stage, DJ booth and stage would be in the "Heel", Bar and dance floor would be around the "shin", with the VIP section at the top. Roughly 10' ceilings throughout.

Did I lose anyone?

My plan thus far breaks the room into 4 "zones". Mainstage, Dancefloor, VIP, and Pool. Taking out of the 24-channel board's main output to a DBX Driverack 260 to control these areas with delays for the appropriate zones. Zone controllers from the 260 to manage volume in each one. Stereo for the Mainstage and Dancefloor. Mono for the Pool and VIP areas. That would fill the 260's 6-channel output.

For the Mainstage we would be using a passive system. Possibly two CerwinVega EL36c subs left over from the previous owner on each side. I am still undecided on the Mains, but preferably dual 15s. Any input there would be appreciated.

Dancefloor would be two QSC K12s mounted toward the ceiling and either a Ksub or Mackie SRM1801 subwoofer for the side opposite the Mainstage.

The Pool area would use 2 QSC K10s and I have not decided if it needs a sub being that it's so close to the main stage.

The VIP area would have 2 QSC K8s and we would like a smaller sub for a low-end fill.

I have just started on this project and any advice would be helpful.

Thanks.

Logged

g'bye, Dick Rees

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7424
  • Duluth
Re: First Timer Club PA Design
« Reply #1 on: October 22, 2012, 08:19:20 pm »

Zack...

The best you can do is to point them towards a professional who has the experience, business license, bonding and insurance to do this.

Otherwise keep your distance.
Logged
Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain...

Zack Bowman

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8
Re: First Timer Club PA Design
« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2012, 08:31:28 pm »

Zack...

The best you can do is to point them towards a professional who has the experience, business license, bonding and insurance to do this.

Otherwise keep your distance.

Thanks for the advice, but seeing as I plan on doing this for the rest of my life I would rather be in over my head and learn from my mistakes. I am definitely not new to pro audio, just new to this scale of a system.

We all have to start somewhere.  ;)

Edit: I would much rather you all tear my current plan apart than attack me for my lack of knowledge, experience, etc. That form of criticism is actually beneficial.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2012, 08:36:09 pm by Zack Bowman »
Logged

g'bye, Dick Rees

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7424
  • Duluth
Re: First Timer Club PA Design
« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2012, 08:36:46 pm »

Thanks for the advice, but seeing as I plan on doing this for the rest of my life I would rather be in over my head and learn from my mistakes. I am definitely not new to pro audio, just new to this scale of a system.

We all have to start somewhere.  ;)

To start with you should have a business license, bonding and insurance.  Just like the people you're asking to tell you how to do the job.
Logged
Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain...

Mac Kerr

  • Old enough to know better
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6885
  • Audio Plumber
Re: First Timer Club PA Design
« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2012, 08:48:10 pm »

Thanks for the advice, but seeing as I plan on doing this for the rest of my life I would rather be in over my head and learn from my mistakes. I am definitely not new to pro audio, just new to this scale of a system.

We all have to start somewhere.  ;)

Edit: I would much rather you all tear my current plan apart than attack me for my lack of knowledge, experience, etc. That form of criticism is actually beneficial.

Is it going to be your money that buys the gear? Are you going to be the owner in a long enough term to have to deal with any of the mistakes at your own expense? If you don't own it will you correct any mistakes you make at your own expense?

Learning by making mistakes is a valid way to learn, I do it all the time. I try not to do it at someone else's expense.

Wiring in a public business place, hanging speakers over people who don't expect to get hit on the head, and providing timely and professional post installation support are all things that require certain expertise. Expertise you need to have before you begin an installation project, no matter how small.

Find a professional to do the project, and be part of the client contact and decision making process, but for now, leave the actual decisions to the pro.

Mac
Logged

Zack Bowman

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8
Re: First Timer Club PA Design
« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2012, 09:07:26 pm »

Is it going to be your money that buys the gear? Are you going to be the owner in a long enough term to have to deal with any of the mistakes at your own expense? If you don't own it will you correct any mistakes you make at your own expense?

Learning by making mistakes is a valid way to learn, I do it all the time. I try not to do it at someone else's expense.

Wiring in a public business place, hanging speakers over people who don't expect to get hit on the head, and providing timely and professional post installation support are all things that require certain expertise. Expertise you need to have before you begin an installation project, no matter how small.

Find a professional to do the project, and be part of the client contact and decision making process, but for now, leave the actual decisions to the pro.

Mac

Now that's what I want to hear! Constructive criticism. Dick's advice seems to incur a certain relation to his name...

I am employed by a national sound equipment supplier and have contacts with the experience to steer me in the right direction, what I was hoping to find with this forum. I am in the beginning stages of this project and was actually wanting advice on what i have planned, not someone to tell me exactly what I need to do.

I am consulting, not installing, but I will provide the proper amount of training and materials for this system to operate smoothly for quite some time.

If the only feedback I will encounter on here is that of the "Pass it on to the professionals" variety I will no longer be a part of it.

One day I will be among you, the professionals, whether you like it or not. I'm not doing this for a paycheck. It is a calling.

Albeit, I hold all of your experience and knowledge to the highest regard. Thanks.
Logged

Ivan Beaver

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9076
  • Atlanta GA
Re: First Timer Club PA Design-Why dual 15's for mains???
« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2012, 09:26:25 pm »

You said that you are acting as a "consultant" on this.

You also say that you prefer dual 15's for mains.

Would you mind explaining why you think a dual 15" is the proper choice for a loudspeaker?

The following steps are the ones to take in a design.
1: Coverage needed for a particular area.
2: SPL/Freq response needed for the job.
3: Budget for different parts of the job-loudspeakers-mixing-monitoring etc
4: THEN and only then do you start to think about brands of loudspeakers.

And starting the "design" with just the low freq section of the mains is kinda "bass akwards" if you ask me.

A "consultant" is who the owner goes to to figure out what is the best setup for the room.  That is based on experience in both install and knowing specifics about particular pieces of gear-how they work and so forth.

As has been stated-are you willing to stand behind the design?  Do you have errors and omissions insurance in case it doesn't work.

What is your plan if it doesn't work?  Who pays?

Not trying to be mean-but these are things to consider.
Logged
A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

PHYSICS- NOT FADS!

Brad Weber

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2209
  • Marietta, GA
Re: First Timer Club PA Design
« Reply #7 on: October 23, 2012, 12:16:59 am »

You mention using a DriveRack 260 for the routing and control of two stereo and two mono zones but you also mention several of the zones having multiple mains and/or subs.  How do you plan to address crossovers, matching levels, etc?
 
You also seem to be planning on a number of powered speakers in various locations.  Have you looked at the power available and what may be required to get power to all of those locations?  This is apparently an installed system so extension cords and such are probably not permitted.
 
I am consulting, not installing, but I will provide the proper amount of training and materials for this system to operate smoothly for quite some time.
This is intended as a serious question, but what do you consider to be your role and services as a consultant?  Not trying to be disrespectful, simply trying to understand your view of your role and what services you are providing.
 
As others have noted, installed systems have their own related areas of required knowledge and expertise.  You may know the products but do you know industry standard design, installation, procurement, contractual, etc. practices?  Do you have sufficient knowledge of the applicable code and ADA related aspects?  What is your knowledge of associated aspects such as rigging, other building systems, electrical systems and so forth?  Do you have any required or appropriate business and/or professional licensing, insurance, bonding and so on?  Do you have all the appropriate tools and resources to properly perform your work?  Whether consulting or installing, these aspects can be relevant to providing those services for installed systems.  They are also the areas where many otherwise knowledgeable people struggle and/or fail when they first get involved with installed systems.

If the only feedback I will encounter on here is that of the "Pass it on to the professionals" variety I will no longer be a part of it.

One day I will be among you, the professionals, whether you like it or not. I'm not doing this for a paycheck. It is a calling.
Again, please take this as constructive criticism but this comes across as you want to some day be a professional but until then, as long it is to your benefit you will take work and avoid involving existing qualified professionals.  That may not be what you mean but do you maybe see why some people might have a problem with it?
 
You can definitely learn from mistakes and we all do it at some point but you can also learn a lot and avoid many mistakes by learning from those who already have the related expertise and experience.  And sometimes you may have to pay for that learning opportunity, for example hiring or suggesting a Client hire someone more experienced from whom you can then learn.
 
I know the perception is that pros always suggest hiring pros because that is their business.  That is true, but perhaps not always in the way many may think.  Pros like to see qualified pros hired because they know it is more likely to better serve the Clients and also to better represent the pro audio industry.  Sure, I hate to have someone beat me out for a job I know I could do but if that party then does a poor job that not only is a job I did not get but also to the Client's detriment and could also cost me and others much more than just that one opportunity.  I think most real pros understand this and make the recommendation to hired qualified professionals because they understand the potential benefit for everyone resulting from clients having a good experience and ending up with a positive perspective of the pro audio industry.
Logged

Scott Carneval

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 992
    • Cenero Audio Visual
Re: First Timer Club PA Design
« Reply #8 on: October 23, 2012, 11:31:00 am »

You mention using a DriveRack 260 for the routing and control of two stereo and two mono zones but you also mention several of the zones having multiple mains and/or subs.  How do you plan to address crossovers, matching levels, etc?
 
You also seem to be planning on a number of powered speakers in various locations.  Have you looked at the power available and what may be required to get power to all of those locations?  This is apparently an installed system so extension cords and such are probably not permitted.
 This is intended as a serious question, but what do you consider to be your role and services as a consultant?  Not trying to be disrespectful, simply trying to understand your view of your role and what services you are providing.
 
As others have noted, installed systems have their own related areas of required knowledge and expertise.  You may know the products but do you know industry standard design, installation, procurement, contractual, etc. practices?  Do you have sufficient knowledge of the applicable code and ADA related aspects?  What is your knowledge of associated aspects such as rigging, other building systems, electrical systems and so forth?  Do you have any required or appropriate business and/or professional licensing, insurance, bonding and so on?  Do you have all the appropriate tools and resources to properly perform your work?  Whether consulting or installing, these aspects can be relevant to providing those services for installed systems.  They are also the areas where many otherwise knowledgeable people struggle and/or fail when they first get involved with installed systems.
Again, please take this as constructive criticism but this comes across as you want to some day be a professional but until then, as long it is to your benefit you will take work and avoid involving existing qualified professionals.  That may not be what you mean but do you maybe see why some people might have a problem with it?
 
You can definitely learn from mistakes and we all do it at some point but you can also learn a lot and avoid many mistakes by learning from those who already have the related expertise and experience.  And sometimes you may have to pay for that learning opportunity, for example hiring or suggesting a Client hire someone more experienced from whom you can then learn.
 
I know the perception is that pros always suggest hiring pros because that is their business.  That is true, but perhaps not always in the way many may think.  Pros like to see qualified pros hired because they know it is more likely to better serve the Clients and also to better represent the pro audio industry.  Sure, I hate to have someone beat me out for a job I know I could do but if that party then does a poor job that not only is a job I did not get but also to the Client's detriment and could also cost me and others much more than just that one opportunity.  I think most real pros understand this and make the recommendation to hired qualified professionals because they understand the potential benefit for everyone resulting from clients having a good experience and ending up with a positive perspective of the pro audio industry.

AMEN!

Zack, where are you located?  There is a good chance that someone on this forum is in your area and could take on this project but also hire you for labor so you could begin to learn the industry. 
Logged

Ivan Beaver

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9076
  • Atlanta GA
Re: First Timer Club PA Design
« Reply #9 on: October 23, 2012, 01:39:45 pm »


I am employed by a national sound equipment supplier and have contacts with the experience to steer me in the right direction, what I was hoping to find with this forum. I am in the beginning stages of this project and was actually wanting advice on what i have planned, not someone to tell me exactly what I need to do.


When you say "national sound equipment supplier" exactly what does that mean?  A mail order house?  A large install company?  A rep firm?  Something else?

Personally I would go to them (if they are so equipped (which you say they are) to do design work.

Or are you trying to do this "under the table" to keep them out of it?
Logged
A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

PHYSICS- NOT FADS!

Zack Bowman

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8
Re: First Timer Club PA Design
« Reply #10 on: October 23, 2012, 01:57:53 pm »

When you say "national sound equipment supplier" exactly what does that mean?  A mail order house?  A large install company?  A rep firm?  Something else?

Personally I would go to them (if they are so equipped (which you say they are) to do design work.

Or are you trying to do this "under the table" to keep them out of it?

I started this project yesterday, but I am moving it up the proper chain of command and this customer will be taken care of. No worries and thanks for all of your wisdom.  :)
Logged

g'bye, Dick Rees

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7424
  • Duluth
Re: First Timer Club PA Design
« Reply #11 on: October 23, 2012, 02:19:36 pm »

I started this project yesterday, but I am moving it up the proper chain of command and this customer will be taken care of. No worries and thanks for all of your wisdom.  :)

IOW, you've essentially taken the advice you received in the first response.  Good for you.  You'll get more props from the referral to the appropriate folks than from making mistakes to learn from at their expense.
Logged
Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain...

Zack Bowman

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8
Re: First Timer Club PA Design
« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2012, 09:11:07 pm »

Just an update.

I've consulted with more experienced peers and decided on a new active system. An A&H Mixwizard, DBX Dr260, two KW153s, and four KW181s are sounding right for his place. It's very adequate and he's very happy; if he wants to add more speakers in the future he can easily. This also allows him to set the 260 to mute the PA if the fire alarm goes off, the name of the club is Heat so you never know haha. I told him to consult a qualified contractor for the hanging of any speakers. Thanks for putting that into perspective and thank you for your knowledge.

Logged

ProSoundWeb Community

Re: First Timer Club PA Design
« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2012, 09:11:07 pm »


Pages: 1 2 [All]   Go Up
 



Page created in 0.084 seconds with 22 queries.