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[Peter Morris]

I have been looking to add another digital desk to our hire inventory, something that has more rider acceptance than our current iLive’s (not the iLiveT).  It will be used with a high quality medium size, 18 boxes (+subs) line array.

In Australia the most common rider spec is currently for a Profile on FOH and a PM5D for monitors.

A new Profile is too expensive for me at moment, and I worry that they are getting a bit old and starting to fall out of favour a little. Not sure about getting a used Profile or a new SC48 for the same reason.

What’s interesting when you start to compare the iLive to other desks; is how good the iLive is on every account except one – rider acceptance.

…anyway I’m leaning towards a Midas Pro 2.  They are a bit too new to have rider status yet but I expect they will soon become quite acceptable, especially with the show files being compatible with its big brothers…. the level at which the Pro 2 competes, it seems to offer the best rider acceptance potential, especially considering the price, features and sound quality … despite a few little issues I have. 

I’m interested in what others expect to happen with rider acceptance at this level over the next few years. What desk(s) would you consider? (Cross hiring is not an option and I need a digital multicore)

FWIW I have shown a quick comparison below -- not sure how accurate it is, but please adjust as necessary.
 
iLive
Channels – 128
EFX – 8
GEQs- 32
DCA - 16
Aux sends – 32 max
iPad + off line editor
-Very good sound quality
-Most number of channels/GEQs/AUX etc.
- can operate with no surface: i.e. computer/ iPad and rack
-Options
   M-waves plug-ins
   Ethersound
   Madi
   Dante
   AES-EBU


Pro 2
Channels - 56
EFX – 6
GEQs – 28 max
VCA – 8
Aux sends – 32max out.
Groups
Matrix
GEQs – 28 max
iPad + off line editor
- Cannot have aux sends pre gate, comp & /or EQ
- Excellent sound quality - but no AES-EBU on standard DL251 rack
- Pop groups and pop VCAs… I love these.
- Lots of options with modular rack system


SD9
Channels – 48 (96 stereo)
Aux sends 16 (16 stereo)
EFX – 8
GEQs - 24
Groups?
Matrix ?
- Off line editor – no ipad app.
- Excellent sound quality


SC 48
Channels – 48
EFX
GEQs -24
VCA
Aux sends – 16 (expandable to 32)
Matrix - 8
-Good sound quality

Venue Profile
Channels – 48 expandable to 96 with 16 out
EFX - ?
GEQs -24
VCA - ?
Aux sends –16?
Groups ?
Matrix ?
GEQs -24
-Good sound quality
-Plugins


CL5
Channels – 72 + 8 stereo
EFX – 8
GEQs -24
DCA - 16
Aux sends – 24
Matrix - 8
-iPad + off line editor
-Very good sound quality
- Drives like an M7 with layers and a digital multicore..

PM5D
Channels – 48 + 8 stereo
EFX - 8
GEQs -24
VCA - 8
Aux sends –24
Groups?
Matrix - 8
-Good sound quality
-The layout of the Aux sends is good for monitor applications

Soundcraft Vi Si ??

[Thomas Lamb]

It all comes back to which has the best return on investment. The I live is a good console and if its going to be you using it always then it's no issue. It has gained some rider acceptance but its going to be a while until it widely accepted. The profile is a widely accepted console and if you go off the pm5d as an example of how long that will last I would say it still has another good 10 years left. So I wouldn't worry about that. SC48 has actually become one of my favorite desks. However, while I will take it any day since it doesn't have dedicated dynamics and EQ control on the surface I doubt that it will become more rider acceptable yet most reasonable guys if they showed up and that's what you had while they would complain a little they would get over it because the show file loads and the software is the same. CL5 will be rider acceptable within a year without question because its the newest flavor of YAMAHA. The soundcraft is a good choice but still not as rider friendly. So I would go profile or Yamaha I think both will offer good ROI and last many years.

[Sam Feine]

Having worked with both the Venue Profile and the 5d I would recommend the profile any day. It is widely accepted on riders and is a pretty proven player. That said the new CL series from Yamaha look pretty good and if their predecessors are anything to go by, they will soon gain wide rider acceptability. While the Pro 2 may be a great desk, I just don't see it gaining the rider acceptability that the other options have. I feel like for you, a move to it would be almost sideways as opposed to up in terms of rider acceptability. Right now you are probably best going either the Avid or Yamaha route simply for acceptability alone. Thats not to say that the other desks are not incredible boards, but that from everything that I've seen they are a gamble as far as future acceptability goes and right now the market in my part of the world anyway is almost exclusively Avid and Yamaha based in the price range that your going for.

[Aaron Talley]

Get an Avid desk.

I would be very surprised if someone would turn a Profile or an SC48 depending on the channel count. 

A 5D is also almost always acceptable.

I have only ever run into one band that is very resistant to taking Profile. They needed 2 Pro 9 consoles, and they are from your neck of the woods.

Talley

[Peter Morris]

Thanks guys, I agree at the moment it’s a Profile, the problem is getting a ROI on a desk that was released in 2005. AVID (consumer’s division – I think) also lost $39m last quarter…. So I’m not sure about the Profile/AVID as a long term investment…. Don’t know?

I was expecting the CL5 to be the go, I heard it was going to be PM 5D performance at an M7 price (which it is) but so far, everyone seems to less than impressed for some reason. I don’t think it looks very impressive, an M7 with less faders (layers) but other than that … I guess the question is; will the initial lack of enthusiasm prevent the CL gaining traction?

The Midas is interesting; I can get a Pro 2 and a Pro 1 for the price of a CL5.  The most recent purchases in my part of the world (as far as I know) seem to be favouring Midas for this reason  …. and it sounds better than a Profile. 

The question for Midas is; has Uli done enough to put Midas on the rider list? If he is able to get Pro 6’s and 9’s on the list,  I think the Pro 2 will also get some acceptance.

I also wounder what will happen in 5 years time when all the young guys who are presently doing their time on X32’s, LS9’s and GLD’s will want when they graduate to the next level.

[Mark McFarlane]

Thanks guys, I agree at the moment it’s a Profile, the problem is getting a ROI on a desk that was released in 2005. AVID (consumer’s division – I think) also lost $39m last quarter…. So I’m not sure about the Profile/AVID as a long term investment…. Don’t know?

Avid sold off some of their consumer brands over ~ the past year, the loss my be a write down (I'm not sure, just speculation).

[Peter Morris]

Avid sold off some of their consumer brands over ~ the past year, the loss my be a write down (I'm not sure, just speculation).

It will be intersting to see the 3rd quarter results ...

this maybe an interesting thread  http://soundforums.net/varsity/5524-new-avid-desk.html

[Peter Morris]

FWIW - and I’m not sure how much -  Here is a list of tours & consoles sourced mostly from Mix online from October 2012 to the start of 2011 (so it’s biased towards the US market)

Kenny Chesney and Tim McGraw – Pro9
Mutemath – Avid
Chickenfoot -PM5D
Avenged Sevenfold –Pro6
Derek Trucks and Susan Tedeschi– Digico D5
Bon Iver–Digico SD10
Dolly Parton – Pro 9
Queens Jublie concert – XL8 Pro 9,6,2
Mastodon – PM5D
Cheap Trick Tour - Midas H3K
Metallica - XL8
Ben Harper and the Relentless7 - Profile
Colbie Caillat– PM5D
Adele – iLive
Phish Tour – Midas XL8
Sir Paul McCartney - Profile
Kid Rock – Profile
Lady Gaga – Profile
Ray LaMontagne - Profile
Bareilles –Pro 9 (Profile monitors)
Blink 182 – Pro 6
Linkin Park – D show
Kings of Leon – XL8
Bruno Mars and Janelle Monae –SD8 (PM5D monitors)
Peter Gabriel –SD7
Deep Purple – Soundcraft  Vi1
Lady Antebellum -Profile
Jeff Beck and Imelda May Band –Profile (Pro 6 monitors)
Michael Buble – SD7
Maroon 5 – SD7
Usher –XL8

[mark lonow]

hats off to midas and behringer for having the flavor of the year 2012!!!
i was thinking id see a bigger increase in digico or soundcrafts this year but i was rong

 midas proz being  maby  3rd  most used desk this year(buy tourin acts)
digico has strong presence with bands that carry  ... maby still more then midas  but its close this year
at the very least there theres a lot more midas proz out there compared to recent years

like  allen and heath, everyone says good things about the soundcraft vi....... but i dont see dem much

lot of the midas i see r from old school early adoptors  that drink the purple drink
few new guys where trying them out ... the question will they stick with it on next years run?

i just dont get the 3 eq nobz on the midas(slow for throw and go)
buy now we should have  14-17 dedicated nobz with encoders around them  (variabile hi and low pass + 4-5 bandz of eq)

1 avid venue  ..is way out there in frount in numbers

close race for these postions
2 digico
3 midas pro
4 yamaha


5 sound craft vi /vista is a rare one

sell the i live and buy a pair of new desks or 1 profile
or dig in with a gdl and ride it out  a few seasons
 

[Jim McKeveny]

Why do I always feel like a contrarian?...:

Across my decades of SR involvement, the only purchase that I ever saw "made the phone ring" was the original V-DOSC.

Choose a console based on your best forecast of useability, longevity, manufacturer support, residual value, etc.

Whenever I see references made to "ROI" I take off my glasses and rub my eyes. SR is at its core an artisanal endeavor. If ROI is a primary compelling consideration, you/we are all in the wrong business.

[jason misterka]

Peter -

We are in a similar situation to you, except that we have already purchased two Avids (Profile MixRack & SC48) a few years back and have two M7CL-48 from before.  We are in the market for another desk, but mostly the riders covered.  So the new desk has to be "Rider-Friendly" but it is a little bit less important to meet every rider since we have options.

I think any of the new digital options on the table in 2012 at the $18,000+ USD price tag have a high enough sound quality that I don't believe "Good Better Best" is really objective enough for this discussion.   

Since you will be keeping your A&H, I don't think that workflow should be too much of a concern either.  For shows that YOUR workflow matters, you can use the A&H.  For shows with their own techs, they have the workflow down for the console they prefer (hopefully.)

In my experience, 99% of the concerts we are contracted for fit within 48 channels and 8 stereo FX or playback channels.  The exception would be symphonic dates, and for those a submixer creating stems is usually accepted, and often preferred.  I know there are tours out there that require more channels, but they are a rarity in our market and often provide their own consoles and snake.

I have narrowed our selection down to three options.  This calculus may be different in your market.  But this is the way I see it here:

1) Midas Pro 2
2) Avid SC48
3) Yamaha CL5



1) MIDAS PRO2

PROS:

Feature set. For me at least.  Variable send mono bus, HP and LP filers everywhere.  6 Band parametric on outputs.

Digital snake system is flexible with all Midas consoles.  We will also have one or two Pro1s.

Starting to see them appear on tours more often.

Price is very reasonable for the package.

As silly as it is to me, our Verona actually did get us gigs, and was even sub rented by some local venues who already had good consoles (Soundcraft MH3, Yamaha PM) because the touring guys at the time wanted purple.


CONS:

Mac only editor.

Support - seems good out of the gate but I don't have a long personal history to look to yet.

Lots of touring engineers like them but not everyone has a file already at this point.

Setup and patching will take some getting used to.  Probably will get faster at it, but not as easy as the Yamaha and Avid options. 



2) AVID SC48

PROS:

This is the most used console in our inventory.  It probably makes sense to just buy another.

Almost every tour has a show file that will work.

Easy 32 channel recording.

So far, we have had good manufactures support.

CONS:

Digital snake is an add-on, both in pricing and in integration.  Not as flexible.  Not enough mic inputs on the desk when using the digital snake without buying another $1000 card.  Can't put outputs in the digital snake unless you either short load the inputs or buy a second.  So adding the snake seems like a $3000 - $6000 cost increase.

Have had a few problems with overheating.  Build exhaust fans into your case and switch out the hard drive for a solid state drive.

No easy Dante option to feed our amps.

Absolutely need a "MixSwitch", or another sidecar console feeding additional processor inputs to use this desk at festivals, revivals, corporate events, or any other place that a 60 second interruption in audio between touring act show files is not acceptable.

The odds of the SC48 being "The Console to Have" in 3 years are pretty slim.  It is fairly old tech and most likely Avid will be replacing it themselves with something newer.  One can only hope it has the staying power of the Yamaha 5D in that you will still see it as acceptable on many riders  ten year later.  Maybe.




YAMAHA CL5

PROS:

In a comparison to the Pro2 and SC48, we should probably be comparing the CL3.  But the CL5 is pretty slick, and that's the one I would want.

Integrated digital snake, works across all CL models, and even older model Yamaha consoles. 

Easy Dante integration for our amps.

Very familiar with routing, storing, workflow, etc.

In a few years, and even if they hate the CLs, every touring engineer will be carrying a show file, IMO.

Very comfortable with the Yamaha service people

CONS:

Cost of CL5 is much more $ that Pro2 or SC48.  Cost of CL3, I believe, is also more $ than a Pro2 or SC48, though maybe not the SC48 with full spec digital snake system.  And Yamaha is being pretty tight about good guy pricing on this line.

Perceived sound quality of older Yamaha consoles.





So, I suspect our next purchase to probably be the Pro2, but when we start replacing M7's we may be looking at Yamaha CL.

The good news is there are lots of options finally!

Good luck - let me know if you see anything differently where you are.

Jason

[Robert "VOiD" Caprio]

Peter Gabriel –SD7

Just an FYI Peter Gabriel's FOH guy is now using a Profile, same goes for the last time I saw Sara Bareilles.

[TJ (Tom) Cornish]

Why do I always feel like a contrarian?...:

Across my decades of SR involvement, the only purchase that I ever saw "made the phone ring" was the original V-DOSC.

Choose a console based on your best forecast of useability, longevity, manufacturer support, residual value, etc.

Whenever I see references made to "ROI" I take off my glasses and rub my eyes. SR is at its core an artisanal endeavor. If ROI is a primary compelling consideration, you/we are all in the wrong business.

Hi Jim - as a "lounger" with a day job, I have the luxury of operating in a world as you describe - bringing gear that I want to use rather than just what the gig can support.  For most "real" companies, that's not always the reality.  Margins at many levels are already too marginal - throw in gear that was purchased because it is "the best" but doesn't get used as often as the desk the artist has a show file for, and that asset has just become an LOI.

I would argue that the SR business is at its core a logistics business.  We all get into it because we like sound, and care about doing a good job; but the reason we get shows is not so much that the event sounds great - though that certainly helps - but that the show actually happens without delays and stress caused by three trips to the shop or Grainger to collect missing bits and pieces.

[brian maddox]

...

I would argue that the SR business is at its core a logistics business.  We all get into it because we like sound, and care about doing a good job; but the reason we get shows is not so much that the event sounds great - though that certainly helps - but that the show actually happens without delays and stress caused by three trips to the shop or Grainger to collect missing bits and pieces.

+1 million....  i figured out a very long time ago that the actual sound quality of my system [that is, the thing i cared about the most] was at least 5 or 6 items down on my client's priority list.  if you're in this as a hobby/second income, you can afford to ignore this reality and pursue gear that you like.  but if you're actually trying to make a living at this, and by extension competing with many other people trying to do the same thing, you have to align your priorities with the priorities of the guys writing the check.  that may not be as much fun.  but it is the reality.

one of the reasons i fell in love with d&b q-series a few years ago is because it was a product that actually met both needs.  it sounded awesome, but it also was smaller, lighter, went up faster, was more reliable, and used less power than anything else out there, at least for the kind of shows i did.  so it solved a lot of logistical concerns as well.  shorter loadins and less trucking makes for happy client.  awesome sounding rig makes for happy me.  win.  win.

[Peter Morris]

Hi Jason and Mark,

That about how I see things.

Pro 2 – Maybe …don’t know.
CL – too expensive, but will provide immediate acceptance.
SC48 – agree… the odds of the SC48 being the console to have in 3 year are low.

At this level, for me, it’s probably between the Yamaha and Midas.

Riders seem to be listing - Profiles, Midas Pro 6 &9, Digico SD7/8, PM5d, and occasional a Vi6.  Pro 6 & 9 are now being regularly listed as an option, a year ago that wasn’t the case from what I can tell.

I can’t help thinking, for the price, Midas Pro series offers great value. The Pro 2 is probably not acceptable for a large tour, but is perfect for those B grade acts and venue options.  The show files and sound quality are the same as its big brothers which is also a big plus.
 
While I don’t think it’s had any rider acceptance or traction so far, I can’t help thinking that a lot of people will buy it instead of the Yamaha CL3/5 because of the price and the purple paint syndrome. We may see a swing away from the “Yamaha M7” in the B market (so to speak), but I expect Yamaha will remain a safe bet.
 
I think sound quality is going to become more important, especially with the quality of the new speaker systems on offer … That will be an advantage for Midas.  The question is; will everyone want to stay with what they know or are they ready to try something different … at some point we will stop using M7s, is that now? Has Uli done enough, or is it a better bet to buy a CL?

I suspect the AVID will release a replacement for the Profile ?-?-? in the next year or so, but it will be priced much higher than the Pro 2.

[Geri O'Neil]

Peter, this may be a moot point since you mention the CL being too expensive, but...

In our little world, the riders that cross our desk where a digital desk is requested will list Yamaha, Avid, and Midas as acceptable choices. The CL has been quite a hit with those visiting band mixers, mostly because I can convert their M7CL and PM5D files to the CL so they are ready to go when they arrive. About all of them were familiar with the M7 lay-out, so it wasn't like starting over. And while I agree, it's doesn't seem to be setting the world on fire in terms of being excited about it, everyone and I mean everyone walks away impressed with it, especially the improvement in sound quality. I think in a while, it'll find its place. Sound quality, the premium rack, and the custom layers seem to be the most commented-on features. A plus on our end is that it requires only one Cat5 (we were supplied a Cat6 "touring grade) cable. We have thoroughly enjoyed have the CL5 and have had NO negative reactions to it from visiting band guys.

We have yet to use the CL5 in a monitor situation. I am concerned about the need for considerable fader-flipping in this situation, but with 32 faders on the surface and the ability to assign all of the faders to inputs, it might not be such an issue. That's certainly an individual decision for the person mixing.

For what it's worth...
Geri O

[Peter Morris]

Peter, this may be a moot point since you mention the CL being too expensive, but...

In our little world, the riders that cross our desk where a digital desk is requested will list Yamaha, Avid, and Midas as acceptable choices. The CL has been quite a hit with those visiting band mixers, mostly because I can convert their M7CL and PM5D files to the CL so they are ready to go when they arrive. About all of them were familiar with the M7 lay-out, so it wasn't like starting over. And while I agree, it's doesn't seem to be setting the world on fire in terms of being excited about it, everyone and I mean everyone walks away impressed with it, especially the improvement in sound quality. I think in a while, it'll find its place. Sound quality, the premium rack, and the custom layers seem to be the most commented-on features. A plus on our end is that it requires only one Cat5 (we were supplied a Cat6 "touring grade) cable. We have thoroughly enjoyed have the CL5 and have had NO negative reactions to it from visiting band guys.

We have yet to use the CL5 in a monitor situation. I am concerned about the need for considerable fader-flipping in this situation, but with 32 faders on the surface and the ability to assign all of the faders to inputs, it might not be such an issue. That's certainly an individual decision for the person mixing.

For what it's worth...
Geri O

Hi Geri,
I was expecting to CL to be an absolute winner, and I was surprised by everyone’s lack of excitement when it came out. I don’t think the Midas is as good, but its $10,000+ less (for me) … that’s significant.

The Midas lacks AES-EBU at the rack end, will not do pre- fader + pre EQ & Dynamics (FOH monitor applications), doesn’t have those nice Neve bits and pieces in the premium rack,  and only has 48 inputs at the stage end … but it does sound good, I love the “pop” VCA and group functions and it’s the right colour… and there was something that feels nice about driving one compared to the Yamaha.

Once people give the CL a go, I thought there may be some more excitement, which you seem to be finding. Thanks for the info.

Peter

EDIT - the price difference for me - 52% extra for the CL5! If the price was the same I would buy the CL, but its not.

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