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[Ric Coon]

First of all, Hello everyone!  I have been reading and learning from this board for a very long time, this will make my first post of any significance i think.  Thank you for many lessons learned and advice that is GOLDEN... Now down to brass tax.....

I am the house engineer/production mgr at a venue in central california.  we are in the process of upgrading our in house pa.  I want to go digital and have been comparing the different products that would best suit our needs.  A pm5d is way beyond our budget although it would be nice, its overkill.   we do 70% local acts with nationals on most weekends.   the contenders are the M7, ls9 and yes the behringer x32..... i have read many reviews and feel that without the reputation that behringer has, the x32 hits all points perfectly.... the bonus being the digital snake boxes (the s16's) and of course, the $$$.... i sat with the x32 for a couple hours earlier this week and really like the layout, and its quite easy to get around on... 2 out of 5 nationals that come through our club travel with an engineer... though the m7 or the ls9 even would be great to them, i am afraid of they may be quite unhappy seeing a behringer product in the mix position...  some of the acts carry their own consoles as well, usually digital........  to get to my question(s)

If we go with the x32 and the s16 stage boxes...which we most likely will being that it is wayyyy cheaper than any other console with as much if not more under the hood!!  the owner looks at $$$$  not the tech riders....    i want whatever digital console that comes into the club to be able to utilize our snake, which would be of the AES50 variety (behringer s16)....
SO  ...   would we  need additional modules on top of the klark teknik DN9650 to network the S16 (AES50) with say a Dante, or MADI device... i haven't had much experience on the back end of digital audio networking... i thank you in advance for your advice...

[Caleb Dueck]

What about all the other options (SC48, iLive, Vi, Pro2c, GLD, etc)?

[Chris Johnson [UK]]

I travel to a lot of venues on tours, so I often roll up with my production package to use in the venue with an installed system. Only about 1 in a hundred times does their multi match mine, and even then I'd still rather use mine.

Instead of installing a multi to try and work for everyone, install a nice system of ramps & trays to allow a touring multi to be easily run in.

On the console front, I would seriously look at a pro2c or an SC48. The x32 is very new, and very unknown, and not at all rider friendly (yet?).

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

[brian maddox]

I travel to a lot of venues on tours, so I often roll up with my production package to use in the venue with an installed system. Only about 1 in a hundred times does their multi match mine, and even then I'd still rather use mine.

Instead of installing a multi to try and work for everyone, install a nice system of ramps & trays to allow a touring multi to be easily run in.

On the console front, I would seriously look at a pro2c or an SC48. The x32 is very new, and very unknown, and not at all rider friendly (yet?).

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

Some really good thoughts here.  I think no matter what you put into place, most nationals will want to use their own snake system.  It's been that way for a very long time.  Too many poor inhouse mults and too many bad experiences makes traveling guys want to use as much of their own stuff as possible.  I'd spend the money on an easy cable path and be done with it.

That being said, I also think the X32 is a legit choice for your application.  Many national acts now travel with their console of choice.  You may end up renting desks for some acts, but the cost difference between the X32 rig and its nearest competitors makes this a very economical option.  Plus, you can rent whatever is needed for each show and in teh long run probably make more nationals happier than you would with an inhouse rider friendly desk that they might accept, but won't necessarily like all that much....

[Ric Coon]

What about all the other options (SC48, iLive, Vi, Pro2c, GLD, etc)?

There is no console on the market to date that has all of the functions of the X32 along with a digital snake for under $8000...  That is the bottom line. Being a touring engineer myself, there is no other console that I would like more than a pro series Midas desk, an sc48 or a 5d....  Again,  Bottom line is $$$$ and features...  The behringer is perfect for our needs as Brian said....  Only thing is, it would be nice to be able for whatever production to leave their snake on the trailer if its possible to have cross compatibility with the AES50 network we may have in place... The DN9650 makes that a viable option... Just wish to know if other modules are required to make it work with a madi or Dante device(s),...   Thanks

[Ric Coon]

BTW.  The analog snake will stay installed in case someone rolls in with a Heritage or god forbid a 4K....  LOL maybe even an XL4.. Which mind you is one of my all time faves...   Memories die hard... Hahaha

[Tim McCulloch]

There is no console on the market to date that has all of the functions of the X32 along with a digital snake for under $8000...  That is the bottom line. Being a touring engineer myself, there is no other console that I would like more than a pro series Midas desk, an sc48 or a 5d....  Again,  Bottom line is $$$$ and features...  The behringer is perfect for our needs as Brian said....  Only thing is, it would be nice to be able for whatever production to leave their snake on the trailer if its possible to have cross compatibility with the AES50 network we may have in place... The DN9650 makes that a viable option... Just wish to know if other modules are required to make it work with a madi or Dante device(s),...   Thanks

So when you add in the costs of all the kibbles and bit needed to create this network (like the 9650), how fiscally responsible does this remain?  And as someone who routinely works in performing arts centers I find it a bit disconcerting that low 5-figures would be thrown at the extra stuff to make a $3000 console acceptable.

But that's just cranky old me...

[Brad Weber]

i want whatever digital console that comes into the club to be able to utilize our snake, which would be of the AES50 variety (behringer s16)....
SO  ...   would we  need additional modules on top of the klark teknik DN9650 to network the S16 (AES50) with say a Dante, or MADI device... i haven't had much experience on the back end of digital audio networking... i thank you in advance for your advice...

I agree with Caleb that there seem to be a lot of options between the X32 and the PM5D that might be a bit more rider friendly if that is a factor.
 
I doubt many touring techs are going to be happy with having no control of the preamps so while the DN9650 may interface the audio from the AES 50 stage boxes, how do you plan to address preamp control and monitoring?  This is a more general issue as while there are digital snakes that may provide some compatibility with multiple mixers and mixer brands, I don't believe there currently are digital snakes that provide 'universal' control interfacing for any digital that might be brought in.
 
What is your time schedule?  I don't believe the S16 stage boxes are available yet nor has a reliable dite for availability been identified.
 
32 inputs is not a lot for some venues and while the X32 with the S16 stage boxes would allow for more than 32 physical inputs you might want to consider how the block based input and output routing of the X32 would work.  For example, if you wanted to bring in music to two input channels on the X32 using the USB/FireWire ports then you apparently can't assign just the two channels to inputs and instead have to route the card to input channels in 8 channel 'blocks'.

[Mac Kerr]

There is no console on the market to date that has all of the functions of the X32 along with a digital snake for under $8000...  That is the bottom line. Being a touring engineer myself, there is no other console that I would like more than a pro series Midas desk, an sc48 or a 5d....  Again,  Bottom line is $$$$ and features...  The behringer is perfect for our needs as Brian said....  Only thing is, it would be nice to be able for whatever production to leave their snake on the trailer if its possible to have cross compatibility with the AES50 network we may have in place... The DN9650 makes that a viable option... Just wish to know if other modules are required to make it work with a madi or Dante device(s),...   Thanks

Somehow I just can't imagine any touring show leaving their snake on the truck in order to spend time trying to get their console to work with your snake. If you want to make a tour friendly situation, create an easy path for load in and load out for them to run their snake.

If you really want to provide the wire between FOH and the stage, run a half dozen CAT6 cables and a half dozen runs of Belden 1855A coax with the proper BNC connectors. There is a chance you can convince a tour to use the wire that is already installed to connect their console to their stage racks, I doubt they will have any interest in using your stagebox and mic pres.

Your analog snake probably isn't of much interest either. Why would they want to unpatch their console just to use your snake when they have a patched, labeled snake they know works on the truck?

Mac

[Per Sovik]

I think you might have a compatibility problem between DN9650 and S16, so you may have to use Midas stage boxes if you want to go the DN9650 route. You need to check that out with Behringer and/or Midas support. To be on the safe side, better check wether the DN9650 talks to the X32, it probably does, but you'd better make sure. However, once you add the Madi and Dante cards to the DN9650, and possibly a Midas DL251, you have spent serious money for a very limited gain. Wouldn't it be better to just save that money for now, make sure your analogue stage boxes are in good working order, and just get the X32 and a couple of S16s?

[Ric Coon]

I think you might have a compatibility problem between DN9650 and S16, so you may have to use Midas stage boxes if you want to go the DN9650 route. You need to check that out with Behringer and/or Midas support. To be on the safe side, better check wether the DN9650 talks to the X32, it probably does, but you'd better make sure. However, once you add the Madi and Dante cards to the DN9650, and possibly a Midas DL251, you have spent serious money for a very limited gain. Wouldn't it be better to just save that money for now, make sure your analogue stage boxes are in good working order, and just get the X32 and a couple of S16s?

as usual, everyone here brings up very valid points that i didn't consider.  my boss is quite bent on saving $  and making everyone as happy as possible...  i was tasked to find a solution to fit within a budget, i didn't consider the fact of spending the xtra $  on the KT and the modules to go along with it... thanks for answering that question, Per....  there are a few people here in my city that have the owner's ear, and as inexperienced as he or they may be, i am but ONE and he considers the opinions of many, if that makes sense???    i have wrestled with this guy to at least shell out the $13-14,000 on an M7  and he asked me to look into the X32/S16 due to his "friends" in the business' recommendation..... IE a phone call to Guitar Center i assume......  we need a desk, badly... i (and everyone else that comes through without there own desk) work on a broke down GL4 that has horrible ground issues in the aux busses, among other things.....   i would love a pro2 but can't convince mgmt that we need to spend $$$$$$ to get proper equipment.  sure, we buy a $3000 board and spend  $3-500 every other weekend renting desks to fit the riders and later i have to explain why the production budget is out of whack.......  etc.etc...........  Soooooo, thank you for the advice once again...   

[Ric Coon]

Somehow I just can't imagine any touring show leaving their snake on the truck in order to spend time trying to get their console to work with your snake. If you want to make a tour friendly situation, create an easy path for load in and load out for them to run their snake.

If you really want to provide the wire between FOH and the stage, run a half dozen CAT6 cables and a half dozen runs of Belden 1855A coax with the proper BNC connectors. There is a chance you can convince a tour to use the wire that is already installed to connect their console to their stage racks, I doubt they will have any interest in using your stagebox and mic pres.

Your analog snake probably isn't of much interest either. Why would they want to unpatch their console just to use your snake when they have a patched, labeled snake they know works on the truck?

Mac

agreed.. wondered only if there was an easy solution via the KT DN9650.....  i don't have a lot of room to move financially... we all know what would be acceptable, and what would exist in a perfect world, etc....etc....   

[Chris Johnson [UK]]

I'm not sure I really understand the need for a 9650. Nobody who is travelling with a Madi console is going to use your s16s, partly because they won't be able to control the preamps and they would rather use theirs.

And if you just want to transport Madi then a run of installed coax is better than 2 needless conversions.

Avid consoles are proprietary so anyone who brings one needs their own core or a run of coax (or 4)

I wouldn't try and have a house digital multi. A House analogue multi would be much more useful

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

[Ric Coon]

I'm not sure I really understand the need for a 9650. Nobody who is travelling with a Madi console is going to use your s16s, partly because they won't be able to control the preamps and they would rather use theirs.

And if you just want to transport Madi then a run of installed coax is better than 2 needless conversions.

Avid consoles are proprietary so anyone who brings one needs their own core or a run of coax (or 4)

I wouldn't try and have a house digital multi. A House analogue multi would be much more useful

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

Thanks Chris, like i said, i am not too familiar with the different digital formats, etc...  i have only used the Yamaha digital consoles... the 5d m7 are the only two i am really comfortable on. i had a meeting with the owner today and i think we are going to shy away from the x32 altogether... at least for now.   the last quote i received for an ls9 was before the price increase earlier this year...  it was around $7500....  if anyone has a line on a used m7 (32) with a finance option it would be appreciated... otherwise i think the ls9 is going to be our goal

[Tim McCulloch]

Thanks Chris, like i said, i am not too familiar with the different digital formats, etc...  i have only used the Yamaha digital consoles... the 5d m7 are the only two i am really comfortable on. i had a meeting with the owner today and i think we are going to shy away from the x32 altogether... at least for now.   the last quote i received for an ls9 was before the price increase earlier this year...  it was around $7500....  if anyone has a line on a used m7 (32) with a finance option it would be appreciated... otherwise i think the ls9 is going to be our goal

I would advise waiting a bit longer to purchase a new console.  Not years, but a couple of months.

It sounds like you have a combination of shows on house equipment (with or without visiting mixerpersons) as well as shows that need only stacks 'n' racks.  I'd suggest concentrating on the things that make your routine gigs easier and things that make for an easy stacks/racks day.  That might mean setting up your FOH position so it's easy to strike the house console while leaving processing and drive connections accessible for the road show.

I'd like to reinforce some of the observations and comments up-thread...  First, almost no act or show carrying consoles will use either your analog or digital input infrastructure.  They carry their own consoles and snakes because those items are a known quantity to them.  In the last couple of years, I can recall only 1 artist that used our snake with their FOH desk and that was because theirs had been damaged earlier in the week.  Second, make a way for convenient and SAFE routing of the act's snake/cable bundle.  If you can make it work with <200' of cable, even better.  Third, if you want to install some cabling for use by visiting acts, Mac's advice regarding a CAT6 and coax bundle makes the most sense.  Fourth, have intercom lines at FOH, SR/SL, and any lighting positions (follow spots?)... at least 2 channels-worth.

Finally, a bit of generic advice about equipment choice (particularly as it applies to consoles):  If you or your employees are the only persons to operate the gear, purchase whatever makes sense for whatever reasons.  This also includes things like your i/o infrastructure because it will be the rarest day when it is used by anyone bringing an FOH console.

Have fun, good luck.

Tim Mc

[Ric Coon]

I would advise waiting a bit longer to purchase a new console.  Not years, but a couple of months.

It sounds like you have a combination of shows on house equipment (with or without visiting mixerpersons) as well as shows that need only stacks 'n' racks.  I'd suggest concentrating on the things that make your routine gigs easier and things that make for an easy stacks/racks day.  That might mean setting up your FOH position so it's easy to strike the house console while leaving processing and drive connections accessible for the road show.

I'd like to reinforce some of the observations and comments up-thread...  First, almost no act or show carrying consoles will use either your analog or digital input infrastructure.  They carry their own consoles and snakes because those items are a known quantity to them.  In the last couple of years, I can recall only 1 artist that used our snake with their FOH desk and that was because theirs had been damaged earlier in the week.  Second, make a way for convenient and SAFE routing of the act's snake/cable bundle.  If you can make it work with <200' of cable, even better.  Third, if you want to install some cabling for use by visiting acts, Mac's advice regarding a CAT6 and coax bundle makes the most sense.  Fourth, have intercom lines at FOH, SR/SL, and any lighting positions (follow spots?)... at least 2 channels-worth.

Finally, a bit of generic advice about equipment choice (particularly as it applies to consoles):  If you or your employees are the only persons to operate the gear, purchase whatever makes sense for whatever reasons.  This also includes things like your i/o infrastructure because it will be the rarest day when it is used by anyone bringing an FOH console.

Have fun, good luck.

Tim Mc

thanks tim!  we have a route for cabling, and a place set aside specifically for productions that have their own console... our foh and lighting control position is permanently installed and self contained.. their is a track along an outside wall that is for our snake and the guest production....  we have maybe 1 or 2 shows every month or so that only uses our racks and stacks....  the venue is pretty new, and now that some money is coming in, its time to upgrade the pa....  the reason i started this thread was to get some input on real world applications of digital networks, what would work best in our venue... i know the future will hold many more productions that utilize a digital audio network...  i dont remember the last time i saw an analogue console come into the club and wondered if it would be wise to install permanently a certain brand or type of digital snake and would the s16 with a converter of some type be a viable solution....  to meet our budget and help any production that carries their own console etc...  cheers all!

[Samuel Rees]

I think you missed that part of what they are saying - an installed digital snake is not going to be useful. No one is going to want to connect it if you had one! First, most console carrying acts will want to use their snake, no matter what because they trust it. Second, if an act used your digital snake they'd be replacing the preamps and converters in their console with X32 (or other digital snake) ones - for many BEs that defeats the point of having their console! Finally, any solution you could think of with MADI converters and etc likely isn't going to give the guest console control of the preamps, that will have to be done separately which no one wants to do.

Conclusion: clubs are not buying generic digital snakes for the purpose of being hooked up to guest consoles. Your best case scenario for that would be if you got say, a Vi1, guests carrying Vi, or Si MIGHT be willing to connect to your Vi stagebox.

[ProSoundWeb Community]