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[Craig Smith]

I will be doing sound for a performance of selections from Handel's Messiah in December with a choir, soloists, and orchestra.  The musicians will be at the end of a chapel that is 40 ft wide and 65 ft. long from the point where the soloists will stand, with the choir behind them and orchestra in front of them.  The chapel then opens up into a 60 ft. wide by 100 ft. long multi-purpose room, with a 16 ft. high opening. 

My thought is that the choir and orchestra shouldn't require any reinforcement in the chapel itself.  But I'll need some reinforcement for the soloists, and I'll need to reinforce everything in the multi-purpose room.  It seems that a traditional setup would require 2 snakes and 2 mixers, at least if I want to mix from a proper position.  I'm wondering if this would be a good excuse to finally get a digital mixer that I can remotely control.  Any thoughts?

[Roland Clarke]

I will be doing sound for a performance of selections from Handel's Messiah in December with a choir, soloists, and orchestra.  The musicians will be at the end of a chapel that is 40 ft wide and 65 ft. long from the point where the soloists will stand, with the choir behind them and orchestra in front of them.  The chapel then opens up into a 60 ft. wide by 100 ft. long multi-purpose room, with a 16 ft. high opening. 

My thought is that the choir and orchestra shouldn't require any reinforcement in the chapel itself.  But I'll need some reinforcement for the soloists, and I'll need to reinforce everything in the multi-purpose room.  It seems that a traditional setup would require 2 snakes and 2 mixers, at least if I want to mix from a proper position.  I'm wondering if this would be a good excuse to finally get a digital mixer that I can remotely control.  Any thoughts?

If the soloists are any good they shouldn't need any re-enforcement in a church, even a large one.  If however you do find that you are indeed going to re-enforce the larger area, I would just produce a sensible mix of the whole.  A digital mixer isn't needed for this, if you want to buy one, this wouldn't justify it and I personally have mixed views about remote mixing via tablet, yeah, it may look cool and being able to wander round the room might have some value, but if you've done your job properly it's not really necessary.

[Craig Smith]

True, I'll talk to the director and also do a test with my wife.  I will probably plan on doing something in the larger hall, but it would be a lot easier if I don't have to do anything in the smaller one.

I admit I'm a little apprehensive about making changes on a tablet or phone; I'd like to see if my local shop has something I can try out though.

[Craig Smith]

One other question - I know I ideally should delay the speakers in the larger hall, but how necessary is it?  I will double-check the measurements today, but the difference is probably 45 ms.

[g'bye, Dick Rees]

One other question - I know I ideally should delay the speakers in the larger hall, but how necessary is it?  I will double-check the measurements today, but the difference is probably 45 ms.

Where are the speakers located in relation to the soloists?

I usually delay speakers used to reinforce acoustic music to about 6' behind the original source, mains and/or delays.

[Craig Smith]

Where are the speakers located in relation to the soloists?

I usually delay speakers used to reinforce acoustic music to about 6' behind the original source, mains and/or delays.

In the front hall I'm not sure if I will have reinforcement for the soloists or not.  It's likely I will, and if so the speakers would be just a few feet in front of them (and maybe 10 feet to one side and 20 to the other, but not sure).  I've never thought about delaying them, but that might be a good idea for better localization of the source.)

In the back hall the speakers will be about 50 feet back.  The choir will be a several feet behind the soloists and the orchestra will be about 10 feet in front.

[Tim Perry]

In the front hall I'm not sure if I will have reinforcement for the soloists or not.  It's likely I will, and if so the speakers would be just a few feet in front of them (and maybe 10 feet to one side and 20 to the other, but not sure).  I've never thought about delaying them, but that might be a good idea for better localization of the source.)

In the back hall the speakers will be about 50 feet back.  The choir will be a several feet behind the soloists and the orchestra will be about 10 feet in front.

Craig the speakers that are 50' from the mains should be delayed by 44 mS  (or maybe a tad more)  provided that they are pointed in the same direction as the mains and you desire the transition to be nearly seamless if you walk past them and enter the coverage pattern of the main speakers.

How important is this?  I feel it's pretty important to maintain ineligibility in the areas where the coverage of the 2 zones intersect.

[g'bye, Dick Rees]

Craig the speakers that are 50' from the mains should be delayed by 44 mS  (or maybe a tad more)  provided that they are pointed in the same direction as the mains and you desire the transition to be nearly seamless if you walk past them and enter the coverage pattern of the main speakers.

How important is this?  I feel it's pretty important to maintain ineligibility in the areas where the coverage of the 2 zones intersect.

From the OP:

"The musicians will be at the end of a chapel that is 40 ft wide and 65 ft. long from the point where the soloists will stand, with the choir behind them and orchestra in front of them.  The chapel then opens up into a 60 ft. wide by 100 ft. long multi-purpose room, with a 16 ft. high opening. "

The delays should be in the expansion area.  Ideally, you'd likely want more than just whatever reinforcement you're using for the main seating area.  A few mics on the chorus and either a good stereo mic or some area mics on the orchestra would feed a separate mix to make the sound from the delay speakers in the lower ceilinged room more coherent.

If you simply use only the soloists back there you may or may not get an acceptably balanced sound (mix).  Of course, this means you'll have to have the routing, delay and output options you'll need.  When I've done anything similar I also paid attention to the pickup of the choir and orchestra mics and used more delay to synch them up if needed.

It's fun. 

[Jerome Malsack]

From the OP:

"The musicians will be at the end of a chapel that is 40 ft wide and 65 ft. long from the point where the soloists will stand, with the choir behind them and orchestra in front of them.  The chapel then opens up into a 60 ft. wide by 100 ft. long multi-purpose room, with a 16 ft. high opening. "

The delays should be in the expansion area.  Ideally, you'd likely want more than just whatever reinforcement you're using for the main seating area.  A few mics on the chorus and either a good stereo mic or some area mics on the orchestra would feed a separate mix to make the sound from the delay speakers in the lower ceilinged room more coherent.

If you simply use only the soloists back there you may or may not get an acceptably balanced sound (mix).  Of course, this means you'll have to have the routing, delay and output options you'll need.  When I've done anything similar I also paid attention to the pickup of the choir and orchestra mics and used more delay to synch them up if needed.

It's fun.

I agree also with the mic's to get a nice balance mixed with the solo.  As the distance from the sources increases you will be loosing 6 db for every double in distance.  The delayed speakers will bring the signal level in the rear back up and help those in the rear to be able to enjoy it with equal sound.  This also will allow the mains to stay lower and not blast the front rows.   I typically will use a click track to test the delays to ensure intelligability, also test on various clicks to vary sound from lows and highs.

[Craig Smith]

Thanks everyone, exactly.  I plan to only reinforce the soloists in the front to balance the natural sound of the choir and orchestra (no delay), but reinforce everything in the back, with delay.  I'll have to learn how to use a click track. 

They did this performance several years ago and they only mic'd the soloists through the house system and the sound was not balanced in the back at all.  I didn't think about separate delay for the choir vs. orchestra but that makes sense.  I plan to use a stereo pair each for the choir and orchestra; hopefully that will give me enough flexibility.  I can't easily do more than that. 

And yes, my big concern is making sure I have the equipment I need to do this.  I wasn't sure if 50 ms would be enough to warrant delay.  With speech I think there could be intelligibility problems, but with music I'm not sure.  I am considering buying some new equipment and want to make sure it can do what I need.

Thanks.

[Tim McCulloch]

Thanks everyone, exactly.  I plan to only reinforce the soloists in the front to balance the natural sound of the choir and orchestra (no delay), but reinforce everything in the back, with delay.  I'll have to learn how to use a click track. 

They did this performance several years ago and they only mic'd the soloists through the house system and the sound was not balanced in the back at all.  I didn't think about separate delay for the choir vs. orchestra but that makes sense.  I plan to use a stereo pair each for the choir and orchestra; hopefully that will give me enough flexibility.  I can't easily do more than that. 

And yes, my big concern is making sure I have the equipment I need to do this.  I wasn't sure if 50 ms would be enough to warrant delay.  With speech I think there could be intelligibility problems, but with music I'm not sure.  I am considering buying some new equipment and want to make sure it can do what I need.

Thanks.

This is one of the applications where a digital mixer with delay on each input and mixing bus or group can give a real advantage.

[Craig Smith]

This is one of the applications where a digital mixer with delay on each input and mixing bus or group can give a real advantage.

Exactly what I was thinking.

[Mark McFarlane]

... I wasn't sure if 50 ms would be enough to warrant delay.  With speech I think there could be intelligibility problems, but with music I'm not sure...

50ms delay between two identical music sources is very noticeable (and very annoying) to me.

[Jordan Wolf]

50ms delay between two identical music sources is very noticeable (and very annoying) to me.

+1

[Craig Smith]

Great, thanks, good to know!

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