Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Tim McCulloch]

So, it looks like the only way to have a front truss directly above the front lip of the stage (and not 3' back is:


I would think this setup wouldn't need anything in the way of ballast, or even very large base plates. As long as the truss that links the two goal posts is well attached, could this thing possibly fall over?

Do you work around drunk people?  How about folks with anger management issues?

Use the flat base plates and put plants, flowers or other decor on them.

Now, have you considered how your will build this... how many people, ladders, available space?  How will you elevate and attach your speakers, lights, cables and accessories?  Where/how will you run the cables?

Perhaps most important:  how much more will you be able to charge your clients for the capital investment and extra labor this will require?  Will it get you higher-paying work you cannot get without it?  How much of that work is there, per year?

[alan hamilton]

Do you work around drunk people?  How about folks with anger management issues?

Use the flat base plates and put plants, flowers or other decor on them.

Now, have you considered how your will build this... how many people, ladders, available space?  How will you elevate and attach your speakers, lights, cables and accessories?  Where/how will you run the cables?

Perhaps most important:  how much more will you be able to charge your clients for the capital investment and extra labor this will require?  Will it get you higher-paying work you cannot get without it?  How much of that work is there, per year?

Well, these were all the questions I was about to ask. Probably stated more succinctly than I would've....

Backing up a little in this thread... You're using scaffolding now but the AE lifts with a leg sticking out will be a problem....? Considering you can mitigate the trip hazard of the leg with sub placement I'm getting confused on where the problem is.

What $$$ figure is your band actually at? Does it even justify truss and lifts and flown speakers? There are the gigs where the answer is "Yes, it does" but then there are the gigs where your truss and lifts will cause as much or more grief than the speakers on scaffolding are already causing. You'd be trading one problem for another. The idea for many of these 200-500ppl weddings is for the band to be as compact as possible, easy to setup and strike as possible, play the songs the bride wants, and finally sound and look good (within the constraints of the gig) doing it. But we're talking trees for the lights, 2-4 subs, and speakers on sticks.

In fact, the productions I've been involved in where the stage is to be more like you are describing is where the band doesn't even provide their own production. The planner works with a production company to design something that works with the theme/event and interfaces with the band who brings their backline (and ear package if they have it).

Without knowing if for some reason your market is vastly different than what I'm familiar with, it sounds to me like your money would be better spent in downsizing and efficiency versus going larger.

But I agree with one thing.... Loose the scaffolding... Or atleast have it properly dressed.

[Brent Gillespie]

Well, these were all the questions I was about to ask. Probably stated more succinctly than I would've....

Backing up a little in this thread... You're using scaffolding now but the AE lifts with a leg sticking out will be a problem....? Considering you can mitigate the trip hazard of the leg with sub placement I'm getting confused on where the problem is.

What $$$ figure is your band actually at? Does it even justify truss and lifts and flown speakers? There are the gigs where the answer is "Yes, it does" but then there are the gigs where your truss and lifts will cause as much or more grief than the speakers on scaffolding are already causing. You'd be trading one problem for another. The idea for many of these 200-500ppl weddings is for the band to be as compact as possible, easy to setup and strike as possible, play the songs the bride wants, and finally sound and look good (within the constraints of the gig) doing it. But we're talking trees for the lights, 2-4 subs, and speakers on sticks.

In fact, the productions I've been involved in where the stage is to be more like you are describing is where the band doesn't even provide their own production. The planner works with a production company to design something that works with the theme/event and interfaces with the band who brings their backline (and ear package if they have it).

Without knowing if for some reason your market is vastly different than what I'm familiar with, it sounds to me like your money would be better spent in downsizing and efficiency versus going larger.

But I agree with one thing.... Loose the scaffolding... Or atleast have it properly dressed.

+1.    My band has done several  corporate events, weddings,  and New Years Eve parties  in  300-800  person ballrooms.  They were all favorable experiences   regarding  planners, brides,  staff,  mgt.  in regards  to our set up .  Perhaps  a  SOS  set up and  light stands/ T-bar  doesnt  cut it for the OP's  needs  but for the most part  it has worked wonderfully for  our band.    On some of our bigger  ballroom gigs  (the 500-800 peeps)  we have rented racks and  JBL  SRX and stacked and secured them while  on floor  if we are on a 12"  riser,  or  side staging attatchments  when on a 36" riser.   Depends on what planning coordinators want to put band on  in regards to height.  The band has never had a complaint about the sound & light set ups  and we have never once used trussing or lifts .  It has always been my feeling those 3 & 4 legged(?)  lifts  are more  physically  obtrusive  being a trip hazard and eyesore  than to have some speakers stacked or as an SOS.    To me, it seems  the whole trussing and Genie lift thing is  overkill  in those type of situations.   Perhaps all that may matter when its an A list band but in my experience  it  has always apppeared as overkill.   At most of the events I mentioned above  people  filled dance floor immediately  and  anyone with a possible  "sight line"  issue
kept their opinions to themselves  because  I never have recieved a complaint in 20 years  in regards to that.  BG

[Mark Ellis]

Do you work around drunk people?  How about folks with anger management issues?

Use the flat base plates and put plants, flowers or other decor on them.

Now, have you considered how your will build this... how many people, ladders, available space?  How will you elevate and attach your speakers, lights, cables and accessories?  Where/how will you run the cables?

Perhaps most important:  how much more will you be able to charge your clients for the capital investment and extra labor this will require?  Will it get you higher-paying work you cannot get without it?  How much of that work is there, per year?

The guests can get quite drunk and rowdy, yes.

My understanding from Global Truss is that no matter how large the base plates, a freestanding goal post needs substantial amounts of ballast. Earlier I thought this was absolutely the way to go, but I can't see how to easily get 100-200 pounds of ballast on the front of a 3' X 3' base plate at the front of the stage. Back side would be easy (subs, amp racks, etc.)

Cables will be run through the truss. Speakers will be hung by Polar Focus mounts. We have 4 techs to put it together. I'm guessing it will take a half hour more than our current setup. We always have at least 3' on either sides of our stages, so space should not be a problem, and we always use the dance floor to put everything together. We will always carry the scaffolds in case we have height issues.

As far as the intelligence of the investment, that's a gut feel. Our current scaffolds are covered in linen to make them look nice, but we still get complaints about them because of their size. They're 3' wide and 6' tall to the bottom of the speakers. Again, even covered, the coordinators we're working with often don't like them. These are big weddings, where they've designed the room to the nth degree with little regard for the band that's going to go on the stage. Yes, I think making this next step is worth the time and money. We already have truss for the back lights, and two Applied L16-M stands, so I already own a fairly substantial part of the gear list. We play 60-70 times per year, and I think there are plenty of more shows we could be getting. There's no question I could raise our prices a few hundred dollars per show with this setup and pay off extra labor and capital costs.

Backing up a little in this thread... You're using scaffolding now but the AE lifts with a leg sticking out will be a problem....? Considering you can mitigate the trip hazard of the leg with sub placement I'm getting confused on where the problem is.

What $$$ figure is your band actually at? Does it even justify truss and lifts and flown speakers?

In fact, the productions I've been involved in where the stage is to be more like you are describing is where the band doesn't even provide their own production.

Without knowing if for some reason your market is vastly different than what I'm familiar with, it sounds to me like your money would be better spent in downsizing and efficiency versus going larger.

The scaffolding doesn't have legs sticking out. Taking into account we can't put anything forward of the stage, any lift we use will have to be back too far from the front of the stage to be of use for speakers and front lights. If the tops were hanging from truss on lifts (again, 3' back from the front of the stage to accommodate the front leg) and pointed down to hit the front of the dance floor, the front vocal mics would be right in line in that scenario.

Depending on the date, day of the week, and travel we charge from $6,000-$11,000 per show. I've been in bands that rent or otherwise don't provide production, but quality control and cost were always an issue, which is why I bought the gear.

I absolutely agree that the best possible production is compact, easy to setup and clean looking, which is why I purchased the SLS920s, Danley subs, and LED lights. However, I've found that with every step we've gone up in production (getting away from speakers on sticks, adding moving lights, back truss instead of tripods, etc) the crowds have really responded on a visceral level. I think if you take two bands that are otherwise equal, but one group has a more 'professional' (read: substantial/"just like a concert!") setup, that group is going to get booked more, and for higher prices. The guests may not even realize that's what they're responding to. The trick is getting that to work with the decor, safely, and with minimal fuss. Clearly I don't know what the best way to do that is...

Perhaps  a  SOS  set up and  light stands/ T-bar  doesnt  cut it for the OP's  needs  but for the most part  it has worked wonderfully for  our band. 

Your points are all well taken. However, SLS920 tops on top of our Danley subs aren't high enough, so we need something to elevate the tops.  We used tripod stands for lights and stacked EAW cabs for years and, same as you, never had a problem. However, the Danley subs are too narrow to safely put two speakers on top of one sub, so we'd have a sea of tripod stands trying to make that work with our current gear. Lots of lights, and 4 elevated speakers. In addition, it would be nice to get the tops up higher and more centered to get the sound on the dance floor where we really need it. Another issue is some rooms being shallow and wide (from the stage perspective) and during the dinner set half the audience can't see the band through the speakers.

Guys, I can't tell you how much I appreciate the advice, questions, and feedback. If I come across as though I think I've got this figured out, let me assure you I don't.

[alan hamilton]

Again, even covered, the coordinators we're working with often don't like them. These are big weddings, where they've designed the room to the nth degree with little regard for the band that's going to go on the stage

This concerns me that you are barking up the wrong tree. The planners have little regard for the band, don't like your current setup, yet you are looking at things that will make you even more of a bother to them if you aren't careful.

I'm still not following why the AE lifts are a problem. If you place the subs at the legs to minimize the trip hazard of the extended leg, what is the problem?

You can also get short pipe and drape to go at the edges and hide the subs and/or base of the stands. In fact, get enough to run the length of the stage and enough pipe and bases to go around the AE bases at each end of the stage. Raise it a few inches above stage height and it serves to hide any cable clutter onstage and give the DS area a clean consistent look.  My ASCII art isn't very good but something like this:
  [_]================[_]
You could even uplight that.

You can also build some lattice facades and paint them nicely and place them where the legs of the stands would be. At that point you could even uplight them and make them a part of the scenery.

What about your own speaker wings to get the subs higher for speaker stacking? The boundary effect might cause some cancellation but the tradeoff could be worth it if it minimizes your footprint offstage.

I wasn't suggesting you hire outside production to achieve your goals, instead I was saying that when a band was expected to have that level of production my experience has been the planner and client will hire it and provide it for the band (which also is likely to mean if they want truss they want it flown). So then you have to be careful you aren't making yourselves more bother than you're worth to the clients. There's a fine line sometimes between the show you'd like to be carrying, and the show you HAVE to be carrying to fit the expectations of planners.

I think you need to think outside the box some more to find an appropriate answer.

[Michael Miller]

The guests can get quite drunk and rowdy, yes.

My understanding from Global Truss is that no matter how large the base plates, a freestanding goal post needs substantial amounts of ballast. Earlier I thought this was absolutely the way to go, but I can't see how to easily get 100-200 pounds of ballast on the front of a 3' X 3' base plate at the front of the stage. Back side would be easy (subs, amp racks, etc.)

Cables will be run through the truss. Speakers will be hung by Polar Focus mounts. We have 4 techs to put it together. I'm guessing it will take a half hour more than our current setup. We always have at least 3' on either sides of our stages, so space should not be a problem, and we always use the dance floor to put everything together. We will always carry the scaffolds in case we have height issues.

As far as the intelligence of the investment, that's a gut feel. Our current scaffolds are covered in linen to make them look nice, but we still get complaints about them because of their size. They're 3' wide and 6' tall to the bottom of the speakers. Again, even covered, the coordinators we're working with often don't like them. These are big weddings, where they've designed the room to the nth degree with little regard for the band that's going to go on the stage. Yes, I think making this next step is worth the time and money. We already have truss for the back lights, and two Applied L16-M stands, so I already own a fairly substantial part of the gear list. We play 60-70 times per year, and I think there are plenty of more shows we could be getting. There's no question I could raise our prices a few hundred dollars per show with this setup and pay off extra labor and capital costs.

The scaffolding doesn't have legs sticking out. Taking into account we can't put anything forward of the stage, any lift we use will have to be back too far from the front of the stage to be of use for speakers and front lights. If the tops were hanging from truss on lifts (again, 3' back from the front of the stage to accommodate the front leg) and pointed down to hit the front of the dance floor, the front vocal mics would be right in line in that scenario.

Depending on the date, day of the week, and travel we charge from $6,000-$11,000 per show. I've been in bands that rent or otherwise don't provide production, but quality control and cost were always an issue, which is why I bought the gear.

I absolutely agree that the best possible production is compact, easy to setup and clean looking, which is why I purchased the SLS920s, Danley subs, and LED lights. However, I've found that with every step we've gone up in production (getting away from speakers on sticks, adding moving lights, back truss instead of tripods, etc) the crowds have really responded on a visceral level. I think if you take two bands that are otherwise equal, but one group has a more 'professional' (read: substantial/"just like a concert!") setup, that group is going to get booked more, and for higher prices. The guests may not even realize that's what they're responding to. The trick is getting that to work with the decor, safely, and with minimal fuss. Clearly I don't know what the best way to do that is...
 

Your points are all well taken. However, SLS920 tops on top of our Danley subs aren't high enough, so we need something to elevate the tops.  We used tripod stands for lights and stacked EAW cabs for years and, same as you, never had a problem. However, the Danley subs are too narrow to safely put two speakers on top of one sub, so we'd have a sea of tripod stands trying to make that work with our current gear. Lots of lights, and 4 elevated speakers. In addition, it would be nice to get the tops up higher and more centered to get the sound on the dance floor where we really need it. Another issue is some rooms being shallow and wide (from the stage perspective) and during the dinner set half the audience can't see the band through the speakers.

Guys, I can't tell you how much I appreciate the advice, questions, and feedback. If I come across as though I think I've got this figured out, let me assure you I don't.

At this level, why not get/rent motors and fly the truss with speakers and lights.  Better lighting angle, sound coverage, sightlines, etc..

Especially for rooms you play over and over...

Just a though.

[Mark Ellis]

This concerns me that you are barking up the wrong tree. The planners have little regard for the band, don't like your current setup, yet you are looking at things that will make you even more of a bother to them if you aren't careful.

I'm still not following why the AE lifts are a problem. If you place the subs at the legs to minimize the trip hazard of the extended leg, what is the problem?
I think you need to think outside the box some more to find an appropriate answer.

Because to accommodate the front leg, the lift would have to be 3' back from the front of the stage, putting the speakers and front lights behind the musicians. I drew it up on graph paper, and unless we bring some sort of front fills the speakers would have to hit the front mics to hit the audience in front, and the lights would be on top of the musicians.

I may have overstated the frequency we have problems with our current setup, however you bring up an excellent point about the bigger setup just being more of a nuisance. I think the key would be to always bring the scaffolds, and have the truss to present two options to clients.

At this level, why not get/rent motors and fly the truss with speakers and lights.  Better lighting angle, sound coverage, sightlines, etc..

I've never flown anything before, and am completely beyond my knowledge level with that.

[alan hamilton]

Because to accommodate the front leg, the lift would have to be 3' back from the front of the stage, putting the speakers and front lights behind the musicians. I drew it up on graph paper, and unless we bring some sort of front fills the speakers would have to hit the front mics to hit the audience in front, and the lights would be on top of the musicians.

Place your subs so they block the front leg of the AE lifts. If you put the stands with the front leg sticking out 3' from the DS and then put your subs IN FRONT of the stands BESIDE the front leg then how is that a problem? ...At least how is it a problem in regards to the leg being a trip hazard any longer? Your subs will take up the same sq ft no matter where you place them so that should mitigate that issue with the planner. And everything else you've suggested will have some type of lifts or uprights at the front corners of the stage anyway.

You can also do curtains from the truss DSR and DSL that would hide the stands from forward view. The effect is great if you don't have sightline issues to the stage from seating on the far sides. Black curtains are 'prettier' than the stands....

I may have overstated the frequency we have problems with our current setup, however you bring up an excellent point about the bigger setup just being more of a nuisance. I think the key would be to always bring the scaffolds, and have the truss to present two options to clients.

Not sure what your transportation situation is but we try to avoid that level of 'preparedness' and have that figured out before the truck leaves the shop. It's hard enough loading an unloading a truck with just the gear you need and some basic redundancy. Having extra equip like scaffolding, truss, and lifts eating floor space or suspended from 2x6's on E-Track can really slow down a load in and load out when it stays in the truck and has to be worked around. The smaller the truck/trailer, the bigger the problem. Something to think about.

[Mike Pyle]

Guys, I can't tell you how much I appreciate the advice, questions, and feedback. If I come across as though I think I've got this figured out, let me assure you I don't.

Do you have any photos of your current setup that you could post?

[Mark Ellis]

Place your subs so they block the front leg of the AE lifts. If you put the stands with the front leg sticking out 3' from the DS and then put your subs IN FRONT of the stands BESIDE the front leg then how is that a problem? ...At least how is it a problem in regards to the leg being a trip hazard any longer?

You can also do curtains from the truss DSR and DSL that would hide the stands from forward view. .

Not sure what your transportation situation is...

I'm not sure if I'm not understanding your point (let me know if I am), because I mentioned this a couple of times earlier in this thread. Yes, subs alongside the front leg of the lift does mitigate the tripping hazard, but (again) that puts the truss 3' behind the front of the stage. "Front" lights would be above and slightly behind the performers, and aiming the speakers to hit the front of the dance floor would have the front vocal mics right in their beam

We currently hang curtains as you described on our back lifts to hide them. We'd do the same on the front if necessary.

Good points on the transportation. We have a large trailer, and the current scaffolds take up minimal room on top of the wheel wells, so they'd be easy to continue carrying. Our current truss rides on top of light trunks, and there's plenty more room to stack.

Do you have any photos of your current setup that you could post?

I'll take some tonight and post tomorrow!

[ProSoundWeb Community]