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[John Penkala]

Need to setup a backstage, program sound feed for a fashion show. The models need to be able to hear the show feed from front of house for their show cues. I would be interested in suggested setups.

I will be using an Allen & Heath Mix Wizard 16x2 mixer for the main sound mix. This mixer has 6 aux sends (4 prefade, 2 post fade) per channel but, has no subgroups. I need to mic the audience area and send just that feed only to the backstage speakers. The distance is lengthy from the mixing console around to the backstage zone. Any suggestions for this?

Please discuss this with me.

Note: I have attached a picture of the Allen & Heath 16x2 back panel patches.

Cheers!
Ron

Ron,

I would use a post-fader aux send and not a pre-fader send for this application

JP

[Mac Kerr]

I would use a post-fader aux send and not a pre-fader send for this application

The response recommending pre fade was in relation to the OP's use of audience mics only. With audience mics only, they should be prefader so the monitoring in the dressing room reflects what is actually happening in the room.

If a full program mix is what is really wanted, it should be post fader.

Mac

[Tim McCulloch]

I've done a fashion shows twice (maybe thrice) and I believe this is how we did it. The client does not understand that the inputs and outputs can be routed multiple places so they often assume a mic is needed for a backstage mix. I would send announce and program music back stage and depending on how far the dressing room is from the stage, add a audience mic or two. (The few fashion shows I've done were in malls or a small auditorium so audience could be heard fairly well backstage, no audience mic needed.)

The mix wiz has many options. There are the auxes (and I believe 3+4 are switchable pre/post fade), there is the mono out and the A/B out.

Your example of the client wanting an audience mic is a perfect illustration of clients "designing" rather than communicating the desired outcome.  The client wants the backstage area/green room/dressing room to receive the same programme material the audience is hearing, but that's not the client says to us.

A few months back I was the "props guy" on a same-day tech and show gospel musical.  I started out as the AV tech, but the client couldn't get her video and stills montage "projector-ready"....  that should have been a flag, but with an 8am call and a 3pm tech and dress rehearsal for a 6pm show, none of the hands paid it attention.

The client/director was very specific in the work order about wanting microphones hung over 3, 6' tables down stage (a banquet or dinner scene).  She had a band onstage, right next to the 15 voice choir upstage right.  Dialog and singing positions up left (stands/booms acceptable).  All audio was on PAC equipment.

While I set up the band and organizing the props tables, Audio dutifully hung 3 of the PAC's AKG C535 from the first electric.  We wired the stage and did a line check, rang the hanging mics for as much level as we could achieve with the PAC's tools and then took my dinner break.  Back an hour later, I saw the 535's had been lowered significantly (now about 3' over the tables) and there was a serious pow-wow in progress between the client, Audio, and head Carpenter.  Doors were in 90 minutes.  Audio sees me and says "the hangers... the hangers..."

I know exactly what he's talking about.  The director didn't have a problem with low-hanging microphones if they solved the dialog pickup problems, so I suggest that since that part of the stage was a banquet scene, we use tall desk stands behind the centerpieces and put the microphones in front of the cast.  She liked it, Audio started breathing again, the Carpenter asked "what can I do to help?"

I'll save the details of how we got this together in time for doors, but this is a case where the client's criteria and specific direction suggested that she knew what she wanted and understood the limitations of her choices; and that we accepted that, although our experiences in that theater, with that technique suggested that this design choice was unwise.

The ultimate outcome was satisfactory to the client and PAC, and no animals were harmed. 

[Bob Leonard]

Nice touch Tim. Quick question. Were the mics wireless, and is it alright to harm a chimp if it's eating off your face and hands.

[Tim McCulloch]

Nice touch Tim. Quick question. Were the mics wireless, and is it alright to harm a chimp if it's eating off your face and hands.

No, they were hard-wired mics.  Part of how we pulled it off was the carpenter went up and pulled the C535s, lowered them to the stage in a rigging burrito and then brought the cables when he climbed down.

What you do with angry chimps is up to you.

[Ron Behro]

I'm a little confused with your question. Do you only need to send these audience microphones to the backstage feed? Will the aux mixes not solve the problem?

Hi Tony,

Yes, the mics will be required just for the backstage feed only. Yes, the aux mixes will solve my problem. I will have to run the auxes as pre-fade signal and not assign the channels to the main mix.

Ron

[Sam Zuckerman]

Your example of the client wanting an audience mic is a perfect illustration of clients "designing" rather than communicating the desired outcome.  The client wants the backstage area/green room/dressing room to receive the same programme material the audience is hearing, but that's not the client says to us.

A few months back I was the "props guy" on a same-day tech and show gospel musical.  I started out as the AV tech, but the client couldn't get her video and stills montage "projector-ready"....  that should have been a flag, but with an 8am call and a 3pm tech and dress rehearsal for a 6pm show, none of the hands paid it attention.

The client/director was very specific in the work order about wanting microphones hung over 3, 6' tables down stage (a banquet or dinner scene).  She had a band onstage, right next to the 15 voice choir upstage right.  Dialog and singing positions up left (stands/booms acceptable).  All audio was on PAC equipment.

While I set up the band and organizing the props tables, Audio dutifully hung 3 of the PAC's AKG C535 from the first electric.  We wired the stage and did a line check, rang the hanging mics for as much level as we could achieve with the PAC's tools and then took my dinner break.  Back an hour later, I saw the 535's had been lowered significantly (now about 3' over the tables) and there was a serious pow-wow in progress between the client, Audio, and head Carpenter.  Doors were in 90 minutes.  Audio sees me and says "the hangers... the hangers..."

I know exactly what he's talking about.  The director didn't have a problem with low-hanging microphones if they solved the dialog pickup problems, so I suggest that since that part of the stage was a banquet scene, we use tall desk stands behind the centerpieces and put the microphones in front of the cast.  She liked it, Audio started breathing again, the Carpenter asked "what can I do to help?"

I'll save the details of how we got this together in time for doors, but this is a case where the client's criteria and specific direction suggested that she knew what she wanted and understood the limitations of her choices; and that we accepted that, although our experiences in that theater, with that technique suggested that this design choice was unwise.

The ultimate outcome was satisfactory to the client and PAC, and no animals were harmed. 

That's a prime example of why I love and hate theatre. Interesting problems that need to be solved and a director always changing their mind/doing things without telling anyone. Reminds me of a show I did this past spring but I think we're getting a bit off topic now.

[Ron Behro]

I guess I don't understand your problems.

The easy answer is: an unused output from your mixer and a long-ass cable.  Use a small powered speaker backstage.

How far is far away?

With fashion shows the FOH doesn't need to be "out front."  You can mix from the side; sometimes I've operated these kinds of shows from back stage, getting my cues from the director over walkie talkie or ClearCom.

Hi Tim,

You are right. I should use the pre-fade aux send from the audience mic to feed the backstage speakers. From the amplifier output to backstage speaker the cable length is about 75ft.

Yes, a powered speaker would be a nice option but, the gear supplied will be passive speakers with an amplifier.

I will be mixing sound from beside the stage so that I can have visual cues from the stage manager during the show. It worked well last show.

Thanks for your help.
Ron

[Tim McCulloch]

Hi Tony,

Yes, the mics will be required just for the backstage feed only. Yes, the aux mixes will solve my problem. I will have to run the auxes as pre-fade signal and not assign the channels to the main mix.

Ron

Why do you need microphones for this feed?  What is their purpose?

[Ron Behro]

The mono out on your mixer is simply a sum of the left and right mix signals rather than a dedicated mix bus so if you have a pre-fade aux send available then I would use that.
 
Beyond that, just how long are the runs involved and what are you planning for the backstage speakers and amplification?

Hi Brad,

Other techs have all suggested using a prefade, aux send for the audience mic feed to the backstage speakers. Also have to remember NOT to assign that audience mic channel to the main mix.

My mix position will sidestage with a 75ft distance to run cable to the backstage speaker in the next room. The amps will be located next to the mix area so, I will need to run a speaker cable from the amp to the speakers backstage.

Thanks for your help.
Ron

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