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Author Topic: Powered vs Passive Spkrs for Live Small Venue Metal Band  (Read 28613 times)

Per Sovik

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Re: Powered vs Passive Spkrs for Live Small Venue Metal Band
« Reply #20 on: August 02, 2012, 05:26:42 pm »

snip

I just repacked for s string of serious shows. EAW SM129zi and 159z monitors, QSC PLX amps... 1804 for mons this time.  La-400 subs, MRX525 tops.  I have an outdoor metal show coming up. I hope to get through it without blowing anything.   
Yes, the MRX525 will sound better at the very limit with a proper amp, clearer and more sustained peaks etc. I won't argue that, but that extra capability comes with a risk attached. The PRX and the MRX basically share the same drivers, the MRX bottom drivers are reconable, the PRX drivers are not. I wonder why  ;)
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Spenser Hamilton

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Re: Powered vs Passive Spkrs for Live Small Venue Metal Band
« Reply #21 on: August 02, 2012, 07:12:08 pm »

Hello! My name is Keith Munger and my son is the drummer for a metal band. There are four members in the band and they play the typical small clubs both indoors and out. Currently, they are restricted to venues that have have a house PA system because they don't have their own. I am considering purchasing a system for them. Right now our equipment consists of Audix D series drum mics, a 100' 16x4 channel XLR snake and a PV20 Peavey mixer. I am torn between getting powered speakers or going passive. I am leaning towards the powered and really liking the EV Live X series (ELX112P + ELX118P). I am envisioning a total of 4ea ELX112P and 2ea ELX118P. I have concernes that a powered speaker might be "putting all your eggs in one basket". Another concern is...will it be powerful enough for a metal band? Lastly, in venues that have these bands is there generally appropriate 110V power ON STAGE to run this equipment? Might you have any other observations? I am BRAND NEW to Live Sound...so even elementary suggestions are appreciated.

Perhaps you should rent a few different rigs? Hire in production and see how they get it done?

For me to do a metal band, I would want nothing less than JBL SRX properly powered, scaled to the size of the venue. Metal is loud, the 100W tube amps are loud, the drummers are loud, I simply don't see how a few mid level cabs could do the job without being put under un-needed stress.
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Tim Perry

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Re: Powered vs Passive Spkrs for Live Small Venue Metal Band
« Reply #22 on: August 03, 2012, 04:43:02 am »

Yes, the MRX525 will sound better at the very limit with a proper amp, clearer and more sustained peaks etc. I won't argue that, but that extra capability comes with a risk attached. The PRX and the MRX basically share the same drivers, the MRX bottom drivers are reconable, the PRX drivers are not. I wonder why  ;)

At the venue the stage is a corner setup. These are always problematic acoustically. I decided the 70 degree pattern would do the job better then the 90 degree pattern of the PRX in this instance plus when stacked the horns are well above head height.


Had 4 mixes to wedges and 2 stereo in ear wireless.  3 bands. 

The show should have had a separate monitor board, however I lack the manpower, and was only allowed a 3 hour setup before sound check... and there really wasn't space to put a board.. there is no side of stage here.

Turned out I ran out of sub power tonight.  PLX 3602 into la-400 (8 ohms). It was pretty loud country-rock  (crok?)  I have more subs but the promoter was responsible for loading in and out (up and down a flight of stairs) and didn't want them. 

The mixer was the Presonus 24-4-2  I had all 24 ch assigned for the bands, 2 wireless, pedal steel, banjo, keys, guitars, mando, bass... pretty much everything but a cowbell.
 
 
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Randall Hyde

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Re: Powered vs Passive Spkrs for Live Small Venue Metal Band
« Reply #23 on: August 03, 2012, 01:06:16 pm »

I'd probably go for PRX635 for that more "aggressive" less "refined" sound from 2-4K, but that's just me.
First of all, let me say that I'm a huge JBL/Harmon fan. I have a rack of ITech amps driving SRX cabinets.

That said, I'm withholding recommendations for the PRX line right now.
One of my sound guys bought a pair of PRX 635 cabinets and they had resonance problems with the mid-range horns. He took them to JBL and they fixed them, but this is a design flaw that they "fixed" by adding a gasket. For a metal band, I'm sure the resonance problem would show up as well. Also, 635s are that loud, to be honest.

On the PRX 625 side, I've purchased four of them to upgrade my "B" rig. On July 4th I was using them as delay stacks and two of them blew up (amps died) within 2-3 hours of operation. Finished the show with the other two (good thing they have 90-degree patterns). A week later, I was using them as delay stacks (again) and one of them blew up. All four are in the show (6-8 weeks estimated repair time).

I've got lots of people telling me how great the PRX cabinets are. Loud (I don't see that, but then again I've got them pulling delay stack duty with a 50,000-watt SRX system) and great sounding.  However, until I can get these things to make it through a single gig without blowing up, I'm concerned about recommending them.

I originally chose the PRX 625 over the KW 153 on the basis of weight, max SPL, and looks. Right now, I'm wishing I'd gone with the QSC cabinets. To finish upgrading my "B" rig (which is what these PRX cabinets were purchased for, to replace some old MPro cabinets), I still need to buy four PRX 615 and four PRX 618XLF cabinets. That purchase is on hold until I can figure out whether I really want to stick with JBL/Crown on this stuff.  I really like the weight and I'm a Harmon house, but thus far the PRX line (5 out of 6 cabinets) have been less reliable than Behringer gear for me.

Sorry to rant. I'd love to give JBL the benefit of the doubt and assume that I've just been very unlucky. But 5 out of 6 with problems is a bit too much.
Cheers,
Randy Hyde
P.S. It's not like the limiters were pegged on or anything like that when these things died. Ran some QSC KW122 cabinets for delay stacks last week and they worked great.
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Scott Wagner

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Re: Powered vs Passive Spkrs for Live Small Venue Metal Band
« Reply #24 on: August 03, 2012, 01:32:57 pm »

First of all, let me say that I'm a huge JBL/Harmon fan. I have a rack of ITech amps driving SRX cabinets.

That said, I'm withholding recommendations for the PRX line right now.
One of my sound guys bought a pair of PRX 635 cabinets and they had resonance problems with the mid-range horns. He took them to JBL and they fixed them, but this is a design flaw that they "fixed" by adding a gasket. For a metal band, I'm sure the resonance problem would show up as well. Also, 635s are that loud, to be honest.

On the PRX 625 side, I've purchased four of them to upgrade my "B" rig. On July 4th I was using them as delay stacks and two of them blew up (amps died) within 2-3 hours of operation. Finished the show with the other two (good thing they have 90-degree patterns). A week later, I was using them as delay stacks (again) and one of them blew up. All four are in the show (6-8 weeks estimated repair time).

I've got lots of people telling me how great the PRX cabinets are. Loud (I don't see that, but then again I've got them pulling delay stack duty with a 50,000-watt SRX system) and great sounding.  However, until I can get these things to make it through a single gig without blowing up, I'm concerned about recommending them.

I originally chose the PRX 625 over the KW 153 on the basis of weight, max SPL, and looks. Right now, I'm wishing I'd gone with the QSC cabinets. To finish upgrading my "B" rig (which is what these PRX cabinets were purchased for, to replace some old MPro cabinets), I still need to buy four PRX 615 and four PRX 618XLF cabinets. That purchase is on hold until I can figure out whether I really want to stick with JBL/Crown on this stuff.  I really like the weight and I'm a Harmon house, but thus far the PRX line (5 out of 6 cabinets) have been less reliable than Behringer gear for me.

Sorry to rant. I'd love to give JBL the benefit of the doubt and assume that I've just been very unlucky. But 5 out of 6 with problems is a bit too much.
Cheers,
Randy Hyde
P.S. It's not like the limiters were pegged on or anything like that when these things died. Ran some QSC KW122 cabinets for delay stacks last week and they worked great.
Interesting.  I've got over a year on PRX615m, 612m, and 618S-XLF with zero issues.  Perhaps the issues are with the 625's?  The 618S and 625 are the only models in this line that I haven't driven.  I've heard of overheating, but I've never experienced it.  I've heard of HF drivers working their way loose from the horn lens.  I believe that's likely, but I've never experienced it.  I've run them plenty loud - maybe not FTB (full tilt boogie, for the acronym impared) SRX loud, but it wasn't too far from that.  All in all, these things have been absolutely bullet-proof (for me).  I hope you get it figured out - keep us posted.

That said, for metal I'd be toting the EV QRx rig.  If I were assembling a rig from scratch and money was the biggest issue, I'd probably get JBL MRX tops with SRX subs.  Then again, with QRx you would likely save enough coin on the amplifiers to justify their purchase.  Sensitivity is a MUCH more important spec than power handling.
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Scott Wagner
Big Nickel Audio

Tim Perry

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Re: Powered vs Passive Spkrs for Live Small Venue Metal Band
« Reply #25 on: August 03, 2012, 02:08:13 pm »


Sorry to rant. I'd love to give JBL the benefit of the doubt and assume that I've just been very unlucky. But 5 out of 6 with problems is a bit too much.
Cheers,
Randy Hyde
P.S. It's not like the limiters were pegged on or anything like that when these things died. Ran some QSC KW122 cabinets for delay stacks last week and they worked great.


This is the Crown power module for the PRX 625.  It show a burnt up resistor.  This resistor rapidly get hot and destroys itself, rendering the unit inoperable when the internal 5A fuse is blown.

It will do it every time. 

I replaced the resistor with one of the same ohm value but slightly large wattage. It will not survive more then a few seconds after the fuse blows.

The repaired units have been in service for a couple of months now doing daily Zumba and other jazzercise stuff. 

I advised them to not push it and get some subs... but ya know how it goes...:)
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Keith munger

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Re: Powered vs Passive Spkrs for Live Small Venue Metal Band
« Reply #26 on: August 03, 2012, 02:29:17 pm »


This is the Crown power module for the PRX 625.  It show a burnt up resistor.  This resistor rapidly get hot and destroys itself, rendering the unit inoperable when the internal 5A fuse is blown.

It will do it every time. 

I replaced the resistor with one of the same ohm value but slightly large wattage. It will not survive more then a few seconds after the fuse blows.

The repaired units have been in service for a couple of months now doing daily Zumba and other jazzercise stuff. 

I advised them to not push it and get some subs... but ya know how it goes...:)

Wow... All of this is a lot to take in. I have my Yamaha Sound Reinforcement Book coming in the mail (Amazon). I think after digesting that information and reading elsewhere, I might be able to have an intelligent conversation with you fellas.

I live in Tampa, Florida. There are many great bands that I can hook up with. I am pretty sure at least a few of them will let me lift some speaker cabinets in exchange for some sound "schooling" ;) Who knows...maybe I can give these guys some pointers given all the great info you guys have armed me with...?

Stay tuned...I will let you know what happens next.

....KM

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Scott Wagner

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Re: Powered vs Passive Spkrs for Live Small Venue Metal Band
« Reply #27 on: August 03, 2012, 02:31:28 pm »


This is the Crown power module for the PRX 625.  It show a burnt up resistor.  This resistor rapidly get hot and destroys itself, rendering the unit inoperable when the internal 5A fuse is blown.

It will do it every time. 

I replaced the resistor with one of the same ohm value but slightly large wattage. It will not survive more then a few seconds after the fuse blows.

The repaired units have been in service for a couple of months now doing daily Zumba and other jazzercise stuff. 

I advised them to not push it and get some subs... but ya know how it goes...:)
Seeing as how the entire PRX line uses the same amplifier modules, this is certainly relevant.  You would THINK that the fuse would guard against just such a thing.  Now that the "fusable link resitor" has been identified, we'll know where to look should anything happen (although it should be very obvious).  Luckily, resistors are cheap.  I'll make sure to put some spares in the work box.

Tim, are your "uprated" resistors capable of handling more than 5A?  If not, I can't see how using "uprated" components is going to help in this particular failure mode.
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Scott Wagner
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Tim Perry

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Re: Powered vs Passive Spkrs for Live Small Venue Metal Band
« Reply #28 on: August 03, 2012, 03:13:56 pm »

Seeing as how the entire PRX line uses the same amplifier modules, this is certainly relevant.  You would THINK that the fuse would guard against just such a thing.  Now that the "fusable link resitor" has been identified, we'll know where to look should anything happen (although it should be very obvious).  Luckily, resistors are cheap.  I'll make sure to put some spares in the work box.

Tim, are your "uprated" resistors capable of handling more than 5A?  If not, I can't see how using "uprated" components is going to help in this particular failure mode.

It isnt.  Switching to a slow-blow fuse might be if some use in this case. However I felt there might be a liability issue. 

The resistor is a high resistance... i don't recall the value but is part of the power supply.
It doesn't carry 5 amps or need to.  When the fuse blows something unbalances and the resistor sees too much voltage.

The internal fuse supplies 100V DC to the 3 output sections.

Note: working on switching supplies is hazardous and should only be done by qualified personnel. 

It is kind of pretty and does have a nice metal RF shield. 

One other thing to note: my research indicates that this amp has been "revised". just what the revision is I do not know.  All my references here are for the model number that ends in 001

 
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Tim Perry

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Re: Powered vs Passive Spkrs for Live Small Venue Metal Band
« Reply #29 on: August 03, 2012, 03:51:38 pm »

Wow... All of this is a lot to take in. I have my Yamaha Sound Reinforcement Book coming in the mail (Amazon). I think after digesting that information and reading elsewhere, I might be able to have an intelligent conversation with you fellas.

I live in Tampa, Florida. There are many great bands that I can hook up with. I am pretty sure at least a few of them will let me lift some speaker cabinets in exchange for some sound "schooling" ;) Who knows...maybe I can give these guys some pointers given all the great info you guys have armed me with...?

Stay tuned...I will let you know what happens next.

....KM


ohhh Tampa! I'm picturing outdoor shows in the direct sunlight... here's what to do if you speaker thermals out if you happen to have a clip on fan with you. 

I like these 535's a lot and they get a lot of use and sound great.   This show was last year, 18 pc big band and it was brutally hot. 
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Re: Powered vs Passive Spkrs for Live Small Venue Metal Band
« Reply #29 on: August 03, 2012, 03:51:38 pm »


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