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Author Topic: Powered vs Passive Spkrs for Live Small Venue Metal Band  (Read 28612 times)

Per Sovik

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Re: Powered vs Passive Spkrs for Live Small Venue Metal Band
« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2012, 04:54:12 pm »

I used the actives because half my others had been stolen.

But it a mistake to assume it just moves the amp inside. It's a SMALLER amp regardless of claims.

Now maybe there is some milder form of heavy metal out there that I haven,t encountered but if you want the VOX to be heard above the screaming backline on stage it take some serious power and the K's just goes into limit and/or thermal out.
Even my dead old EONs can keep up with my JRXs, and the JRXs are no match for my PRXs. I can easily push into the limiters on my dbx DRPA and turn the gain up on the PRX to have the DRPA in turn run the PRXs into limiting, and they won't give up.
If the biggest midprice powered boxes from JBL, QSC, Yamaha and Mackie can't cut it, you are into JBL SRX/Meyer MSL/Nexo alpha/EAW KF territory
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Samuel Rees

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Powered vs Passive Spkrs for Live Small Venue Metal Band
« Reply #11 on: August 01, 2012, 07:49:18 pm »

I think that's just wrong Tim. I don't mean to be confrontational here, but "smaller" than what? Yeah - K's will definitely not hold up to metal. But that's just 1 box.... KW122 will scream even when floored. PRX612M could do well also, totally competitive with a JRX solution for metal and will sound better. I don't know the EVs. Look at each box on its own merits, powered or unpowered. OP, SPL will be a relavent spec for you.

Several powered and unpowered setups are worth lookin at for you IMO. I like the powered setup model, but thats personal pref. A QSC KW153/152 & KW181 main rig with KW122s for mons would be a great metal band PA for small events. Really like the KW181 specifically, I think it is worth looking at for any small rig, even if the rest is unpowered.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2012, 08:17:09 pm by Samuel Rees »
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Tim Perry

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Re: Powered vs Passive Spkrs for Live Small Venue Metal Band
« Reply #12 on: August 01, 2012, 10:07:51 pm »

I think that's just wrong Tim. I don't mean to be confrontational here, but "smaller" than what? Yeah - K's will definitely not hold up to metal. But that's just 1 box.... KW122 will scream even when floored. PRX612M could do well also, totally competitive with a JRX solution for metal and will sound better. I don't know the EVs. Look at each box on its own merits, powered or unpowered. OP, SPL will be a relavent spec for you.

Several powered and unpowered setups are worth lookin at for you IMO. I like the powered setup model, but thats personal pref. A QSC KW153/152 & KW181 main rig with KW122s for mons would be a great metal band PA for small events. Really like the KW181 specifically, I think it is worth looking at for any small rig, even if the rest is unpowered.

Well Sam, smaller then it claims to be for one thing. Lets take the JBL PRX 625 for example. It's billed as being 1500 watts yet both the line fuse and the internal 100 V DC supply fuse are 5 A fast blow.  Getting more power out then power in is just defying the laws of physics.

I just repacked for s string of serious shows. EAW SM129zi and 159z monitors, QSC PLX amps... 1804 for mons this time.  La-400 subs, MRX525 tops.  I have an outdoor metal show coming up. I hope to get through it without blowing anything.     
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Bob Leonard

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Re: Powered vs Passive Spkrs for Live Small Venue Metal Band
« Reply #13 on: August 01, 2012, 10:34:55 pm »

Tim,
The line fuse size is not now or will ever be an indicator of amplifier capability.

Keith,
I am not now or have ever been a fan of powered cabinets. I have never lived in the world where "Is it easy to move and setup." has been a factor. All of my purchases over the past 45 years have been based on one proven formula. Do I need it, will it do the job forever if needed, can it be used if the system is expanded.

Powered speakers are a wonderful thing if you need small venue coverage at good SPL or are in need of small portable packages. Few if any are truly designed to provide high level output forever or to be properly mated and splayed for expansion purposes until you jump into the higher cost touring boxes such as the JBL VP series or equal.

My suggestion would be to budget for mid level (JBL MRX or equal) cabinets and amplifiers that are properly sized. In the end you'll not regret the purchase and will have a foundation to build upon for future use.
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Keith munger

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Re: Powered vs Passive Spkrs for Live Small Venue Metal Band
« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2012, 10:21:07 am »

Tim,
The line fuse size is not now or will ever be an indicator of amplifier capability.

Keith,
I am not now or have ever been a fan of powered cabinets. I have never lived in the world where "Is it easy to move and setup." has been a factor. All of my purchases over the past 45 years have been based on one proven formula. Do I need it, will it do the job forever if needed, can it be used if the system is expanded.

Powered speakers are a wonderful thing if you need small venue coverage at good SPL or are in need of small portable packages. Few if any are truly designed to provide high level output forever or to be properly mated and splayed for expansion purposes until you jump into the higher cost touring boxes such as the JBL VP series or equal.

My suggestion would be to budget for mid level (JBL MRX or equal) cabinets and amplifiers that are properly sized. In the end you'll not regret the purchase and will have a foundation to build upon for future use.

Thanks guys! Realize that I am taking all this in. I like how all the opinions have merit and are usually backed by real history. That is exactly what I wanted when I posted the question.

The fellas in my son's metal band aren't total savages. Besides, since this equipment will belong to and be operated by ME... I can have the final say on the overall volume. I just don't want to sell the boys short on their performance either. I don't think the band justifies the super high-end equipment. What's more...I am technically challenged with pro sound...a total newbie! With that said...a great deal of the "magic" in pro sound is already accomplished with a powered speaker. Even if I have to purchase expensive 10 or 12 AWG  110V power cords to power up the cabinets from the mixer area...then so be it. I think I am going to start with two mains and four subs. I like the QSC1000 and the KW153. For monitors, we will go with in-ear.

So... I will have two KW153 cabs, four QSC1000 subs, in-ear monitors and a Peavey PV20 USB mixer. My drummer son has his Audix D series drum mics, Audix ADX51s overhead and an Audix I5 on snare. The guitarist will probably get an I5 to mic his Marshall. I really don't want to get you all in a microphone conversation because the fur would really start to fly then. ;D

I plan to get the Yamaha Sound Reinforcement Handbook stat! But...before that arrives in the mail....

What should I have in my rack? I have been told a compressor and an EQ. Any other essentials?

...Keith   

« Last Edit: August 02, 2012, 12:57:09 pm by Keith munger »
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cliff truesdell

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Re: Powered vs Passive Spkrs for Live Small Venue Metal Band
« Reply #15 on: August 02, 2012, 11:23:05 am »

I think the sub your after is a QSC KW181 with a 1000w amp.
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Ned Ward

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Re: Powered vs Passive Spkrs for Live Small Venue Metal Band
« Reply #16 on: August 02, 2012, 11:27:26 am »

The fellas in my son's metal band aren't total savages. Besides, since this equipment will belong to and be operated by ME... I can have the final say on the overall volume.


Keith - agree the fellas aren't savages, but you have to remember that you only have final say on the volume you control -- in many cases, the bass and guitar amps can drown out many a powerful PA. Keeping their stage volume in check with good monitoring is critical so they can hear each other but allow you to get a good mix.


Couple of tips you may already know -
- If the guitar player has a dual stack, remember that a lot of players (Townshend, etc.) had two cabs, but usually only the top one plugged into the amp. Gets the sound up to their ears but isn't as deafening as 2 4x12s.
- Depending on the amp, there are attenuators that will help amps get into that power tube distortion area without the accompanying volume; usually if the players crank gain and turn down the master, you get sonic mush, especially for metal in the mix.
- What is the best guitar amp microphone could be a sticky like the kick drum thread, but an i5 is good; I prefer the sennheiser e906 for the multiple filter settings and the fact I don't need a mic stand. Heil's PR40 would also be probably nirvana on those amps and thanks to Bob Leonard's recommendation, I may be saving up my pennies for one.
- Auralex makes a great device called the GRAMMA - helps to acoustically decouple the amp from the stage. With big loud amps, this can help from turning a stage into a big resonator, especially on big amp cabs. It also keeps everything in the house from rattling when you play at home. I have 2 now and never go to a gig without 1 for our bass player.
- You mentioned in-ear monitors - there are tons of threads on this forum with suggestions and tips; we use the Rolls PM55s for our 2 singers as they get to have in-ears, but it's a wired in-ear so it's a great inexpensive way to ease in to what can be expensive. Just be sure as Tim Padrick points out to have a limiter in-line to protect their hearing.


Good luck!
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Dave Scarlett

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Re: Powered vs Passive Spkrs for Live Small Venue Metal Band
« Reply #17 on: August 02, 2012, 11:39:39 am »

Going with in ears opens an entirely new situation as far as costs and your mixer. You'll find lots of discussion on these throughout this board.

A consideration for powered speakers should be the Mackie HD1531 and HD1801 subs, pretty bulletproof and loud at a great price. You can find an extensive review on the discussion here I believe.
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Robert Weston

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Re: Powered vs Passive Spkrs for Live Small Venue Metal Band
« Reply #18 on: August 02, 2012, 03:27:26 pm »

Keith - you have a lot of information to sort through!

If you really are a newbie, you may want to stay away from compressors/limiters/gates until you get the hang of setting gain levels, mixing, and appying proper EQ.  Working with those other "tools" requires a good knowlege of the basics.  Without the basic knowledge, a basic setup can turn into a distaster rather quickly.

Also - if you are inclined, you may want to post the city where you are located.  There may be a board member here in your same city that could offer to help you get things setup/started.
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Per Sovik

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Re: Powered vs Passive Spkrs for Live Small Venue Metal Band
« Reply #19 on: August 02, 2012, 05:13:09 pm »

The mixer choice you have made is very limiting in terms of what it will do for you in the setting you are using it in. Two monitor sends will only be enough for a single stereo in-ear mix, a single effect will limit you, and not having a return to monitors will rob you of the option of providing some reverb to the in-ears. No sweepable mid eq will be no good for kick and snare, and will severely limit what you can do to voices and instruments in general. Add to that no solo for monitors, and you could just as well leave your headphones at home. I could go on.
My suggestion is that you don't waste money on a mixer that won't take you very far, and step up at least a little. If you're not a total novice, maybe have some experience with a DAW, or have time to practice with the band, I would suggest you go entry level digital.
By the time you have added just the basic outboard stuff, you'll have spent enough to take you more than half way to a digital mixer. Presonus Studio Live, Yamaha 01, Behringer X32 and others as well. Have a good look, do the sums. The most economic purchase is the one you only have to do once, the stuff that you end up not using is just an expense.
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ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Powered vs Passive Spkrs for Live Small Venue Metal Band
« Reply #19 on: August 02, 2012, 05:13:09 pm »


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