ProSoundWeb Community

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Pages: 1 2 [All]   Go Down

Author Topic: How hard is pyro?  (Read 7008 times)

Matt Collins

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 100
How hard is pyro?
« on: July 26, 2012, 12:30:42 am »

Looks like I'm doing production for a fairly large event, and I need to make a splash. Pyro was the quickest way I can think to do that.

Obviously since the GW incident it has become much harder these days.

But exactly how hard is it, what would I be looking at spending to make it happen?


Also, what are good alternatives. Cryo I guess? What else?

My specialty is audio so I'm a bit in the dark here. Any suggested advice is appreciated!
Logged

Jordan Wolf

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1356
  • Location: Collingswood, NJ
Re: How hard is pyro?
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2012, 12:50:07 am »

The money you spend on doing it the safe and correct way will be much less than even one of the lawsuits brought against you should something go wrong.

Pay for the pros to do it…hands off.
Logged
Jordan Wolf
<><

"We want our sound to go into the soul of the audience, and see if it can awaken some little thing in their minds... Cause there are so many sleeping people." - Jimi Hendrix

Charlie Zureki

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1244
  • South Eastern Michigan (near Windsor)
Re: How hard is pyro?
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2012, 01:09:07 am »

Looks like I'm doing production for a fairly large event, and I need to make a splash. Pyro was the quickest way I can think to do that.

Obviously since the GW incident it has become much harder these days.

But exactly how hard is it, what would I be looking at spending to make it happen?


Also, what are good alternatives. Cryo I guess? What else?

My specialty is audio so I'm a bit in the dark here. Any suggested advice is appreciated!

   Pyro is not hard, but, it does take a no- bullshit attitude.... as in NO Short cuts or screwing around.  Basically, a person "designs" the pyro show from available, ready made effects that can be purchased from a Manufacturer.  The "design" phase takes into consideration the venue's ceiling height, ambient construction materials, and surrounding materials, proximaty to the audience, and control barriers.  There must be a safety plan and safety devices such as approved extinguishers available. 

    Generally, a one-time permit is purchased through the local fire agency or State Fire Marshall's office. Many localities require an applicant to test for a permit.  The gags are set up for a walk through inspection prior to the show. (Usually at lunch break) After a preliminary approval by the Inspector or Fire Marshall, the effects are demonstrated if requested.

   Many seasoned Pyro Techs are known by Local Fire Marshalls or Inspectors because years of Touring have made them aquainted.

   My advice is to hire a local Pyro Tech (with experience) and allow them to do their thing.  You can learn a lot just by observation.  If the idea of adding Pyro to your resume is your interest, there are classes given by some of the Pyro Manufacturers.

   Dr. Kosanke... (if he's not retired), is one of the top Pyro Chemists in the World, a Military and Industry Consultant. and teaches short courses at various Universities.  He is the Chemist that solved the problem of getting the color white in Pyro effects, something, that was elusive in the past.

   Remember, there are two areas of Pyro.. Stage pyro and exhibit Pyro...and I'm guessing you're interested in Stage Pyro.

    Good Luck, and remember the Insurance policy.

    Hammer
Logged
Do it the right way....don't be a Dino!

DanGlass

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 58
Re: How hard is pyro?
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2012, 06:30:44 am »

Wiring everything up, push the button, launch pyro = easy
Wiring everything up, push the button, launch pyro, kill someone = even easier

This one area that I have to admit I did experiment with, but fortunately for me I realized that I had no idea what I was doing and quit.  Flames, sparks, and bangs are not a way to experiment.  Just think of it this way, would you be willing to stand on the stage if you knew that the guy who put the pyro together didnt have any experience?  There are way to many variables to know and consider like crowd distance, wind, flammables, sight lines, and the list goes on.  Another thing to consider, other than possibly killing someone, is that if something went wrong you would be forever known as the guy who caused it and your phone would become real quiet.

Spend the money on a pro.  As an alternative cryo is a really great effect.
Logged

Matt Collins

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 100
Re: How hard is pyro?
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2012, 09:49:27 am »

Yeah I definitely don't plan on doing anything myself.

I am just curious what the minimum cost I could expect to incur to do pyro at my show would be?

Once I have a ballpark figure I would know if it's feasible or not.
Logged

Tim Perry

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1251
  • Utica-Rome NY
Re: How hard is pyro?
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2012, 10:00:28 am »

Yeah I definitely don't plan on doing anything myself.

I am just curious what the minimum cost I could expect to incur to do pyro at my show would be?

Once I have a ballpark figure I would know if it's feasible or not.

No one can even give you even a vage idea of cost without even a vage idea of the scope of the requirements.

How about you speculate on how lighting effects such as lasers, laser emulators, movers, chases can supplement your show.
Logged

Matt Collins

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 100
Re: How hard is pyro?
« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2012, 10:12:07 am »

No one can even give you even a vage idea of cost without even a vage idea of the scope of the requirements.
An arena holding 10,000 people.

How about you speculate on how lighting effects such as lasers, laser emulators, movers, chases can supplement your show.
I am an audio guy, my knowledge in these areas is limited, which is why I'm asking the question here.  :P

 I'd like to do pyro, but if it is too difficult (or expensive) I am definitely open to other options.
Logged

brian maddox

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2244
  • HeyYahWon! ttsss! ttsss!
Re: How hard is pyro?
« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2012, 11:38:31 am »

An arena holding 10,000 people.
I am an audio guy, my knowledge in these areas is limited, which is why I'm asking the question here.  :P

 I'd like to do pyro, but if it is too difficult (or expensive) I am definitely open to other options.

this one is a 'call a pro and get a quote' kind of thing.  we aren't gonna be of much use to you without a bunch more info.  and if you're gonna go to the trouble to give us all the info, might as well just go to a pro and give them the info.

couple of tips on picking a pyro guy...

1.  don't hire a kid.  if they are barely old enough to vote, they've got no place on your show.

2.  don't hire a 9 fingered old guy.  nuff said....

and as i often say...  every great gig story starts with the words 'so there was pyro' and ends with the words 'emergency room'....
Logged
"It feels wrong to be in the audience.  And it's too peopley!" - Steve Smith

brian maddox
bdmaudio@gmail.com

'...do not trifle with the affairs of dragons...

       ....for you are crunchy, and taste good with ketchup...'

TJ (Tom) Cornish

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4280
  • St. Paul, MN
Re: How hard is pyro?
« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2012, 11:46:15 am »

I've done something qualifying as pyro once - angle grinders on metal sheathed setpieces.  This is surprisingly cool to see, and being non-incendiary, quite a bit safer than some other things.

This was done in a hotel ballroom, and we did the following to make it happen:
Permit from city FD
Insurance rider with hotel
Fire treatment of clothing of everyone on-stage
Covered floor with masonite painted with flame retardant paint
Fire watch - FD onsite during event

In the end, it cost us about $1000 for the permit, fire watch, fire treatment, etc. I think, and it was pretty cool.  This picture is of a practice run, hence the empty chairs.  For the actual event, folks were wearing black.  The pictures don't do it justice.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2012, 11:48:02 am by TJ (Tom) Cornish »
Logged

brian maddox

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2244
  • HeyYahWon! ttsss! ttsss!
Re: How hard is pyro?
« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2012, 11:49:07 am »

I've done something qualifying as pyro once - angle grinders on metal sheathed setpieces.  This is surprisingly cool to see, and being non-incendiary, quite a bit safer than some other things.

This was done in a hotel ballroom, and we did the following to make it happen:
Permit from city FD
Insurance rider with hotel
Fire treatment of clothing of everyone on-stage
Covered floor with masonite painted with flame retardant paint
Fire watch - FD onsite during event

In the end, it cost us about $1000 for the permit, fire watch, fire treatment, etc. I think, and it was pretty cool.  This picture is of a practice run, hence the empty chairs.  For the actual event, folks were wearing black.  The pictures don't do it justice.

that one i have not seen.  very cool idea...
Logged
"It feels wrong to be in the audience.  And it's too peopley!" - Steve Smith

brian maddox
bdmaudio@gmail.com

'...do not trifle with the affairs of dragons...

       ....for you are crunchy, and taste good with ketchup...'

James Feenstra

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 713
Re: How hard is pyro?
« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2012, 01:09:09 pm »

for a licensed pyro guy (you need someone specifically licensed in your state as well, at least in the US, canada has a canada wide ticket, other countries vary) you're looking at $3000-5000 BEFORE they're actually adding in any product

then you have to pay for double the product you'll actually be firing on the show, as a fire marshall can (And will, on occasion) as for every single effect to be demonstrated before the show starts. $2000 worth or product fired during your show (which isn't much) therefore costs you $4000.

a Pyro company will typically carry their own insurance, so no need to worry about that, and they'll likely know what permits/etc are required.

personally I'd recommend Pyrotek if you're anywhere near Toronto or Las Vegas, although they can probably point you in the right direction even if you're not.

I've been a licensed pyro guy in Canada for about 2 years....gigs are few and far between so it's not enough to make a career out of at the moment, budgets for that sort of thing (ie. high liability effects) has gone down a LOT

Pyro is cool, but there's lots of other wowing effects that cost a lot less and are a lot less dangerous, ie;

cryo
confettii/streamers
automation (moving truss/video walls/etc)
propane (also dangerous/expensive, but not as much as explosives, can also do different colors easily)
vertical smoke effects
dry ice

it really depends on what you're trying to do with your show. give me a shout via email if you want to talk more about it;

jamesafeenstra at gmail dot com
Logged
Elevation Audiovisual
www.elevationav.com
Taking your events to the next level

Charlie Zureki

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1244
  • South Eastern Michigan (near Windsor)
Re: How hard is pyro?
« Reply #11 on: July 26, 2012, 02:18:56 pm »

Hello Matt,

   There is a lot of misinformation that's been posted in this thread. So...here goes:

  In the US, there is only one National License needed.... the BATFE type 19 license.  It is the license needed for the Pyro Tech's ability to mix flash powders and purchase electric matches for pyro use.   Contact the BATFE for an application form, the cost is very small for the license.

 In the U.S., about half of the States require a special State License for the use of Theatrical Pyro devices, and the others, of course do not have an special State sanctioned Licenses. These licenses are generally less than $40.

   There is a free pamplet from the BATFE .... ATF P 5400.7 the Orange book. Anyone can request a copy of this...go to their website..

   There is a comprehensive Book by the NFPA ... number 1126 and it's cost is about $50. It gives much more data and fire safety information.

   In the States that do not require a State Pyro License, (such as Michigan) the regulation of Theatrical Pyro is administered by the Local City/Township or County Fire Department. These local agencies are where one would seek an application for permitting of Theatrical Pyro. (They generally require a short written test also)  These Permits can range from $100 and up.   The Local competantcy test cost is usually under $40,  with a time restricted license granted upon passing.   

    These City and BATFE licenses (including State Licenses) DO NOT exempt a Pyro Tech/Company from attaining a permit for the event(s).  Again the obtaining of a local Permit is Manditory before any or all Pyro demonstrations.

   Theatrical Pyro is no more or less dangerous than most consumer Fireworks.  Precautions must be taken to ensure all safety requirements are met.  Most Theatrical Pyrotechnic devices are manufactured and prepackaged for use.  THere are some flash powders and etc.. that must be mixed prior to use, but, this is where the BATFE regulations and certification/licensing comes in.

   Most Theatrical Pyro injuries have not been caused by the devices themselves, but, by other nearby items catching fire or causing hazardous smoke.  If a person uses caution and follows the instructions, there should be no risk for injuries.

   Good Luck,
   Hammer 

 
Logged
Do it the right way....don't be a Dino!

Matt Collins

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 100
Re: How hard is pyro?
« Reply #12 on: July 26, 2012, 03:28:20 pm »

What would be a ballpark cost for cryo?
Logged

Rob Spence

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3344
  • Boston Metro North/West
    • Lynx Audio Services
How hard is pyro?
« Reply #13 on: July 26, 2012, 03:41:11 pm »

Perhaps you need to ask that of a vendor?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Logged
rob at lynxaudioservices dot com

Dealer for: AKG, Allen & Heath, Ashley, Astatic, Audix, Blue Microphones, CAD, Chauvet, Community, Countryman, Crown, DBX, Electro-Voice, FBT, Furman, Heil, Horizon, Intellistage, JBL, Lab Gruppen, Mid Atlantic, On Stage Stands, Pelican, Peterson Tuners, Presonus, ProCo, QSC, Radial, RCF, Sennheiser, Shure, SKB, Soundcraft, TC Electronics, Telex, Whirlwind and others

Nick Pignetti

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 64
    • Event Pro Live
Re: How hard is pyro?
« Reply #14 on: July 26, 2012, 06:36:09 pm »

What would be a ballpark cost for cryo?

I run cryo jets on some of my shows.

Ballpark on $1,500-$2,000 per nozzle, with hose, power, and everything needed to make it work from a technical standpoint. Then you need the liquid Co2. Airgas is one of the largest suppliers of gas (its who I use) You'll need to set up an account with them and they will get you the dewar tanks you need for your effects. Wiring it up and firing it are easy. You'll need a controller as well. You can even use light to mimic pryo (to an extent). The difficult part is lugging the equipment around. You'll not only need dewar tanks (100lbs+ up to 350 or so each depending on the size you get) but you'll need multiple tanks. An average 50lb (100lbs or so full) tank will give you anywhere from 30s-1m of burst for an average high flow jet. Don't forget the expense for carts to move the tanks around (they are expensive, a few hundred each) I average 2 50lb tanks per jet per show. (testing, wet show runs, and the show itself)

You definitely need a good truck, with a ramp or my recommendation- liftgate and e track or the like to make sure you can safely secure the tanks in transit.
It's more the logistical headache and expense than actually buying the jets and Co2. I'm not saying all this to scare you off, because it really is quite easy- but there are definitely many effects that can be achieved easier and cheaper.
Logged

James Feenstra

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 713
Re: How hard is pyro?
« Reply #15 on: July 26, 2012, 11:34:26 pm »

remember that everything that's not explosive (ie. co2, propane, confetti, etc) can be fired via dmx off lighting control as well, although the shooter will ALWAYS require a clear, unobstructed view of the stage in it's entirety in order to determine if it's safe to fire or not

realistically, special effects are not cheap, which is why they're called special effects....if everyone had/could afford them they wouldn't be that special!
Logged
Elevation Audiovisual
www.elevationav.com
Taking your events to the next level

ProSoundWeb Community

Re: How hard is pyro?
« Reply #15 on: July 26, 2012, 11:34:26 pm »


Pages: 1 2 [All]   Go Up
 



Page created in 0.032 seconds with 24 queries.