Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Ryan Jodrell]

So I just wrapped a 3-day, large scale festival as the patch guy and had a few questions for you touring guys with VENUE show files. What is the best way for you to accomodate our festival patch within your show file? I understand (through talking with the visiting techs, and from experiments in the standalone software) that when you soft patch a stage input to your processing channel that the PRE settings do not remain intact. Is there not a way to avoid this, so your processing channel gain/+48v/pad/phase/HPF all remain intact and all that changes is the source? There must be, as this is the first year in 5 years that this festival has been digital that I've had to go through and patch 1-1 at the main snake head.

Any tips?

[Andrew Broughton]

If it's the same as the PM5D, then the HA gain moves with the soft patch. I ended up writing software to fix this issue.

Most festivals just end up patching 1 to 1 to avoid this problem.

[Jason Raboin]

Write the preamp settings on the input list.

or

Send the master input list and output assignments to the visiting engineers in advance so they can make a show file before they arrive.

Sheldon may have a more graceful way.

I am interested in this as I will have an SC48 at FOH on my stage for Newport Folk and Newport Jazz.  I have not yet heard if any visiting engineers have Venue files, but I assume they will.  Short changeovers, a small stage, and limited manpower make patching one to one difficult.

[Joakim Hammar]

I don't see why festivals can not do a 1 to 1 patch.

[Vaughn Pease.]

Ryan, there's an easy way to get around this.
Load the intended show file, then go to your snapshots page and save a snapshot of just the HA on the scope.
Now do your soft patch to match the festival inputs used to the band's channels, and recall the HA snapshot to reset the preamps. Done.
We've been running our festival stage like this for two seasons now, and it works great!

[Ryan Jodrell]

Hi Vaughn!
I knew it was super simple like this, but trying to explain it to the touring guys this weekend at FolkFest they looked at me like I was from Mars and insisted that I repatch at the snake 1-1, when obviously Terry had made it work for 4 years, I was just never clear on his exact methods.

This is where having the standalone software on site would be a asset, to tweak the show file ahead of time so it's ready to go at line check for the guys. My suggestions to have a laptop and standalone on site were passed over. Next time!

[Nick Enright]

I don't see why festivals can not do a 1 to 1 patch.

For each of 6 acts a day with up to 48 inputs?

you can

 i'll do my best to patch you using the master festival patch fast enough (while the FOH guy and Mons guy soft patch you to your input list order) for you to get a good line check to re-set your gains and various HA settings.

[Ryan Jodrell]

For each of 6 acts a day with up to 48 inputs?

Exactly this! I have 20 mins at best to repatch AND supervise the changeover and make sure that the correct, pre-planned lines get used, AND troubleshoot for FOH/Monitors at the same time.

[Matthew Knischewsky]

I don't see why festivals can not do a 1 to 1 patch.

On most of my festival stages I have anywhere from 15-30 minutes to change over, often with a volunteer crew of stage hands. I don't make the schedule but I'm responsible for keeping it. I'd love to patch the input list 1 to 1 but the reality is the act of doing it is probably going to blow the schedule to get the act on stage on time, and it's going to delay the next change over as well. For the headliner I will consider doing it, especially if they arranged a sound check time before the event begins.

Maybe it would be different if I could get an accurate stage plot and input list for once. On a recent festival stage with 18 acts over 3 days I probably had 3 cases of accurate documentation. Hence the festival patch. Sorry about the inconvenience for BEs but at this level it's full on combat audio. We're going to get every input to the console, but not in the order you're used to. And we're going to keep the schedule.

Matt.

[Steve Payne]

I don't see why festivals can not do a 1 to 1 patch.

110 degree heat.  12 acts.  15 minute stage changes.  welcome to my world.  anybody suggests I give them a 1 to 1 patch gets bitch slapped.

[John Neil]

As I've seen it, if the BE can reach out a few days before and email the file, the console tech can do this at the hotel and perhaps even verify output patch, MC channel, playback channel, etc.  Just put the files on your iphone (and your TM's) and email them from any place in the universe.  Or put a link to your website on the plot and keep them there for easy download.  All this communication oriented technology we carry around is here for a purpose greater than facebooking on the gig.

This isn't for every street festival but if you're the big name on the big stage at the big festival, my role as system guy is to make your show happen on my system?  Right?  If I have to copy down headamp settings on a notepad during changeover because I didn't have a file ahead of time, that's my job.  And if you're not carrying mics, it doesn't matter anyway, because my job is to sit at the console and grab gain settings so they're ballparked when you get out to FOH, right?

[Nick Enright]

<<deleted, we all know the deal>>
 Sorry about the inconvenience for BEs but at this level it's full on combat audio. We're going to get every input to the console, but not in the order you're used to. And we're going to keep the schedule.

Matt.

what he said..

[Dave Bigelow]

My regular touring gig is 21 inputs off the deck, as long as those show up on the console I honestly don't care if there's a gap in channels here and there. I only ask 2 things, we use my mics due to an endorsement, and that they all pop up somewhere at FOH and monitors. As long as that happens I'm more than happy to do what I'm paid to do, mix a band.

If I had twice the amount of inputs I'd probably be carrying both consoles and eliminate the problem for any show that is not a fly date.

[Chris BT Davis]

I'm afraid I'm missing the arguments against and resistance to giving a guest engineer -WITH A FILE- a 1-1 patch. The time saving point doesn't hold water: relating the fest-patch to the guest engineer who then has to soft patch and (on consoles without an effective solution to this problem) reset gains/48/pad settings must take as long as patching 1-1 with more opportunity for error in going the soft patch route. And now the guest engineer is less comfortable having just rooted around in a file that was right last night, with barely enough time to line check and go on an otherwise unfamiliar rig.

I get that giving an engineer their 1-1 INPUT LIST patch when they're starting from scratch does seem silly, and most BE's tend to get that IME, but when I'm system guy I'll patch it 1-1 if that's what they really want to make them feel comfortable and it's remotely possible. It's a service business.

But as it's been said, between advance communication and two splits or an offline editor running during the previous set all of this should be a non-issue.

[Sheldon Radford]

Hi Ryan,

A few folks have already posted the "snapshot method" for recalling preamp settings after a soft patch. After doing this once you'll be able to handle a festival patch with no problem.

Here's a copy/paste on the topic from the Avid DUC (http://duc.avid.com/forumdisplay.php?f=25):

Here's another method that works really well and allows you to reset the PRE settings for all channels in one go, compared to the cut/paste method I described earlier.

First, some background...
Every time a snapshot is stored on a VENUE system all of the console data (except plug-in settings) is captured and stored. We'll use this fact to our advantage in a cross-patch situation.

Here's how:
1) Before making the cross patch create a new snapshot to capture the current gain settings. Name the snapshot "PRE Settings."
2) Cross-patch all channels as needed. This will cause the PRE settings to change to whatever the newly patched input is set to. Do not panic...
3) Set the scope of the "PRE Settings" snapshot so that all input channels are scoped (red), and ONLY the PRE data type button is scoped. (This indicates that only the PRE settings for the scoped channel will be recalled - exactly what we want). Make sure the IN data type is NOT scoped (it should be gray).
4) On the Options > Snapshots page, under the PRE heading make sure all choices are checked (Gain, 48V, HPF, etc.).
5) Recall the "PRE Settings" snapshot. Result: the new patching remains in place, but you now have all of the original preamp settings back.

What's cool about this approach is that you can get the preamp settings back even long after making the cross-patch. So long as you haven't overwritten the snapshot with the new pre settings they can always be recovered using the steps described above. Even cooler, all of this can be done offline using the standalone software, in advance of the gig.

Don't forget to return to the Options > Snapshots page and set the PRE options back to their previous settings.

Also, if you have the IN data type (for input patching) scoped in any snapshot you'll need to update those snapshots to reflect the new patching. Otherwise you could be in for a surprise when the input patch changes mid-show...

Sheldon Radford
Avid

[JonathanSmith]

I'm afraid I'm missing the arguments against and resistance to giving a guest engineer -WITH A FILE- a 1-1 patch. The time saving point doesn't hold water: relating the fest-patch to the guest engineer who then has to soft patch and (on consoles without an effective solution to this problem) reset gains/48/pad settings must take as long as patching 1-1 with more opportunity for error in going the soft patch route. And now the guest engineer is less comfortable having just rooted around in a file that was right last night, with barely enough time to line check and go on an otherwise unfamiliar rig.

I get that giving an engineer their 1-1 INPUT LIST patch when they're starting from scratch does seem silly, and most BE's tend to get that IME, but when I'm system guy I'll patch it 1-1 if that's what they really want to make them feel comfortable and it's remotely possible. It's a service business.

But as it's been said, between advance communication and two splits or an offline editor running during the previous set all of this should be a non-issue.

I've been patching on the main stage of a handful of very large festivals (40-80k in attendance) for a few of years now. Those usually have 30+ main stage acts across 3-4 days of show. I use two splits - one for the headliner that is patched per their input list, and one for everyone else. Once I patch the split for the day, I don't change it. Too many BE's don't advance anything current, and carry old/out-of-date/useless files. ("Why don't you have the Waves Ultra-Platinum-Supremeo bundle on here? I need to have that!")  Even when I can get a file emailed to me, when they show up day-of they've always added a banjo, or a 4th guitar player, or have a new drummer with a completely different drum setup. Last summer, it was right around the 50th act before I got a correctly advanced input list.

As far as time saving, yes, it is faster for me to stick with my input patch, and for you to soft patch and dial up a few gains. You're going to tweak those anyway. While I'm dropping mics in front of guitar cabs and plugging in your 9 trax lines, you can twist a knob a few times if you don't know how to do the snapshot method or the channel-strip library method. We're probably going to go thru nearly every channel for monitors anyway. It is advantageous to start getting electrons moving as soon as we can to get those mixes dialed up.   

My regular touring gig is 21 inputs off the deck, as long as those show up on the console I honestly don't care if there's a gap in channels here and there. I only ask 2 things, we use my mics due to an endorsement, and that they all pop up somewhere at FOH and monitors. As long as that happens I'm more than happy to do what I'm paid to do, mix a band.

If I had twice the amount of inputs I'd probably be carrying both consoles and eliminate the problem for any show that is not a fly date.

As for using your mics, I'll find a way to use your lead vox RF mic, but that's about it. As much as I want to be friendly with everyone, unless you're the headliner, you can use my industry-standard mics/DIs. I don't use cheap stuff, and sometimes use fun mics that most engineers enjoy - M88's, RE20's, 421's, etc. I'll try to give the BE some kind of choice - "I have two 57's and two 609's on deck for guitars. Which would you prefer?"

There are some exceptions - If your whole act is on rolling risers and I'm pre-micing acts to roll-on roll-off, I'll use your mics, or let you choose fun/interesting/different stuff from my mic library. A guy asked me to hang a Beta98 on the bass cab. Not my usual choice, but hey, it worked for him.

[James Feenstra]

110 degree heat.  12 acts.  15 minute stage changes.  welcome to my world.  anybody suggests I give them a 1 to 1 patch gets bitch slapped.

stage boxes, multis, rolling risers (not even necessary, but useful for things like drums), multiple snake heads (you need a split with a venue system anyways unless you're sharing HA's which is dumb)....how is this difficult? it's how it's done on EVERY major festival ever

stage guy patches next band into snake b while current band is playing. At the end of band, gear changes over, multis from snake b get patched to stage boxes and the foh/mon multis get changed over to snake b. FOH is run through a small traffic console so music/announcements/etc are not interrupted during change overs...

there is no reason a 1-1 patch is not possible on a festival stage if you send the right gear (i'd assume a company that owns multiple venue systems has a proper stage patch rig)

[Steve Payne]

stage boxes, multis, rolling risers (not even necessary, but useful for things like drums), multiple snake heads (you need a split with a venue system anyways unless you're sharing HA's which is dumb)....how is this difficult? it's how it's done on EVERY major festival ever

stage guy patches next band into snake b while current band is playing. At the end of band, gear changes over, multis from snake b get patched to stage boxes and the foh/mon multis get changed over to snake b. FOH is run through a small traffic console so music/announcements/etc are not interrupted during change overs...

there is no reason a 1-1 patch is not possible on a festival stage if you send the right gear (i'd assume a company that owns multiple venue systems has a proper stage patch rig)

There is EVERY major festival and then there are the other 98% of the festivals going on everyday all over there world.  The vast majority of festivals are not major festivals. Most do not have the budget for all of the tools you enumerate which make one to one festival patching a practicality.  An adequate budget and tools make virtually all things possible - even easy.  In the absence of all that, the great equalizer that makes it all happen is the festival style input list.  Carry on.

[James Feenstra]

All I'm saying is that if you're going to buy an $80,000 console and snake system, you should probably have some stage boxes and multis to use with it. Otherwise you've poorly budgeted your gear. Home running 48 xlrs across a stage makes for a massive mess, and if you're running things that way, you have no business doing festivals to begin with.

[Chris Johnson [UK]]

So I just wrapped a 3-day, large scale festival as the patch guy and had a few questions for you touring guys with VENUE show files. What is the best way for you to accomodate our festival patch within your show file? I understand (through talking with the visiting techs, and from experiments in the standalone software) that when you soft patch a stage input to your processing channel that the PRE settings do not remain intact. Is there not a way to avoid this, so your processing channel gain/+48v/pad/phase/HPF all remain intact and all that changes is the source? There must be, as this is the first year in 5 years that this festival has been digital that I've had to go through and patch 1-1 at the main snake head.

Any tips?

These Engineers need to go back to Venue School!

Make a snapshot that only scopes the 'pre' parameter of every input. Save this at the end of your show. When you rock up at the festival, do your input softpatch and then fire the snapshot. Done!

[g'bye, Dick Rees]

These Engineers need to go back to Venue School!

Make a snapshot that only scopes the 'pre' parameter of every input. Save this at the end of your show. When you rock up at the festival, do your input softpatch and then fire the snapshot. Done!

I thought it was roll up.

[John durisko]

Why is this only based on Venue systems. We use Yamaha and Midas digital and have no trouble patching any engineer that has a card 1-1. Anybody else gets patched to fest patch. No problems to date.

[Dave Bigelow]

As for using your mics, I'll find a way to use your lead vox RF mic, but that's about it. As much as I want to be friendly with everyone, unless you're the headliner, you can use my industry-standard mics/DIs. I don't use cheap stuff, and sometimes use fun mics that most engineers enjoy - M88's, RE20's, 421's, etc. I'll try to give the BE some kind of choice - "I have two 57's and two 609's on deck for guitars. Which would you prefer?"

And I'll "find a way" to pull your vocal mics down and put mine on there, takes 30 seconds dude, if the act wants the other act's lunch and drinks they'll just get them before they are ingested.

[ProSoundWeb Community]