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Author Topic: Yamaha CL Series gain compensation  (Read 29890 times)

Val Gilbert

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Re: Yamaha CL Series gain compensation
« Reply #20 on: August 05, 2012, 05:43:12 pm »

Only turn Gain Compensation on on the MON console. Not on the FOH console. Just like most other systems. Then it should work fine.

Is this something you've tested, and actually seen work, or is this a supposition?
I'm pretty certain we tried this also, and that if you press the GC button on only one desk, it lights up on the other desk as well, remotely.
So basically, GC on a single channel over all desks on the network, can only ever be all on, or all off.
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TonyWilliams

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Re: Yamaha CL Series gain compensation
« Reply #21 on: August 06, 2012, 10:03:47 pm »

You do realize that the HOW market that needs mixers like this is an almost exclusively American phenomenon, right?

To agree with Tim, my personal opinion is that the American HOW market has been a large percentage of Yamaha's LS9 and M7 consoles sales and will most likely be a decent percentage of CL consoles.

Now back to gain compensation.
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Daniel Cotton

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Re: Yamaha CL Series gain compensation
« Reply #22 on: August 10, 2012, 07:04:56 am »

Only turn Gain Compensation on on the MON console. Not on the FOH console. Just like most other systems. Then it should work fine.

We have discovered the same issue (2 x CL5 consoles, 3 x RIO's), i expected the gain compensation to act as discussed above in the forum..  But as the gain compensation is actually happening in the RIO boxes it compensates on both consoles.  Pretty much pointless..  We have just been switching one console to digital gain and leave one guy to do the gain (no compensation)..  If we could just have GC on one console that'd be great, but as soon as you hit the button it's on for both consoles.

Otherwise great consoles!

Dan
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Roger Talkov

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Re: Yamaha CL Series gain compensation
« Reply #23 on: August 11, 2012, 12:17:45 pm »

Maybe other language would be best. GC happens in the RIO box as discussed earlier. GC basically "stabilizes" the level on the Network. Think of this as a network not just as 2 consoles (similar or not). Lets say you have 2 different consoles on the network. It will allow the level regardless of console that is on the network to see a stable level provided its on the network.

Regards to the list,
Roger
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Mac Kerr

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Re: Yamaha CL Series gain compensation
« Reply #24 on: August 11, 2012, 12:26:46 pm »

Maybe other language would be best. GC happens in the RIO box as discussed earlier. GC basically "stabilizes" the level on the Network. Think of this as a network not just as 2 consoles (similar or not). Lets say you have 2 different consoles on the network. It will allow the level regardless of console that is on the network to see a stable level provided its on the network.

Regards to the list,
Roger

Or a non-console on the network. You could use another output of a switch to feed a Dante enabled recorder like a JoeCo Blackbox, and the levels would not change when the mic pre was adjusted to compensate for overdriving the preamp, or under driving. What this system will not do is let you mix with the input trim. It assumes you want to use the input trim to achieve some particular level into AD converter, out of the mic pre, and that you will mix with the faders.

After you have optimized the mic pre level you can use the digital gain control to change where the console faders sit if you want to keep them near the "unity" point.

This is not what other console manufacturers have done, and it may be less intuitive, but in the grand scheme of network signal distribution it is not a bad system.

Mac
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Roger Talkov

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Re: Yamaha CL Series gain compensation
« Reply #25 on: August 11, 2012, 12:40:25 pm »

Mac, Dante recorders.  I hadn't even thought of that for this application and that sure sounds like a great idea. We as engineers need to keep our heads to the future and networking is obviously a huge part of it. You don't have to use GC if you don't want so at least you have the option of doing it old school as well.
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Andrew Broughton

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Re: Yamaha CL Series gain compensation
« Reply #26 on: August 13, 2012, 10:54:48 am »

Essentially, with GC on, you should be using the gain control to adjust the level going to the preamp, NOT to change the level to your channel. You need to change your thinking about this and use the digital trim to set your channel input level. It's a way better system. In fact, with a setup like this, the console could AUTOMATICALLY reduce the preamp gain if the channel ever clipped without affecting either console's levels. Or, you could press an "auto" button while soundchecking to have preamp gains set themselves.

You have to forget the analog way of doing things with a setup like this. I see no downside only benefits once you understand it and use it properly.
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Roger Talkov

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Re: Yamaha CL Series gain compensation
« Reply #27 on: August 13, 2012, 11:17:39 am »

Agreed Andrew. Yamaha is forward thinking on this feature and as more of us get used to this way of thinking it will become second nature to take advantage of it.
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Val Gilbert

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Re: Yamaha CL Series gain compensation
« Reply #28 on: August 13, 2012, 12:32:36 pm »

Essentially, with GC on, you should be using the gain control to adjust the level going to the preamp, NOT to change the level to your channel. You need to change your thinking about this and use the digital trim to set your channel input level. It's a way better system. In fact, with a setup like this, the console could AUTOMATICALLY reduce the preamp gain if the channel ever clipped without affecting either console's levels. Or, you could press an "auto" button while soundchecking to have preamp gains set themselves.

You have to forget the analog way of doing things with a setup like this. I see no downside only benefits once you understand it and use it properly.

Thanks for your input, I completely understand your explanation, however, I'll ask this question in another way:

In what way would having a GC system that works like all the other manufacturers change this principle?
Example:
I have a CL5 doing FOH, and a multitrack Dante recorder or Laptop also on the network on a switch. I would like more gain on my lead vocal, because I don't feel that it's hitting the channel hard enough, let's just say for dynamics threshold for example. Having previously set a gain, enabled GC, I then turn up the gain. I get more level into that channel, and GC compensates the gain on the inputs on anything else in the network, so a stable level to my recorder.
Why is this example inconceivable? I just don't get why no-one understands this.

As a FOH engineer, this is what I want to see, as I don't want to be fiddling with 2 knobs to change gain. I have enough buttons to press and pages to change as it is on today's consoles, why would anyone implement something that makes me press or turn something more?
On top of that, personally, I always try and stay away from positive digital trim. It's just wrong. In the same way digital zoom looks terrible on cameras, it's just asking for trouble and loss of definition. Actually, it says it in the name: "Trim".

Also, should we really be taking clipping into consideration? If you're running multiple desks on a Dante network with routers and RIO boxes, I would have thought you would know about gain structure, and be miles away from clipping.

My concern about Yamaha's GC is not about clipping and gaining down, it's about needing more and gaining up...

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Val Gilbert

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Re: Yamaha CL Series gain compensation
« Reply #29 on: August 13, 2012, 12:48:32 pm »

Also (I've only slept a couple of hours, I'm shattered, so correct me if I'm completely wrong, please):
Essentially, if I follow the current explanation, and I'm in a scenario where I'm using let's say a laptop and Dante virtual soundcard to record to a DAW, if a preamp is clipping, I'd turn it down on the CL5, evidently eliminating the RIO preamp clipping, but GC would maintain the same input level to other Dante devices on the network, clipping the inputs to the DAW if they're set to Unity gain. No?

 :o
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ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Yamaha CL Series gain compensation
┬ź Reply #29 on: August 13, 2012, 12:48:32 pm ┬╗


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