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Author Topic: Yamaha CL Series gain compensation  (Read 29889 times)

TonyWilliams

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Yamaha CL Series gain compensation
« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2012, 10:49:16 am »

I also assume this board is geared to the HOW market, and this kind of system would be beneficial in selling to that market.


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Val Gilbert

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Re: Yamaha CL Series gain compensation
« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2012, 11:39:19 am »

That is why given a large budget, space and etc venues sometimes get an analog split anyway instead of digital sharing. That's how my regular gig is set up.

Using gain compensation is helpful given the circumstance that your are already not using a split system. It's not just about clipping either. If FOH changes a gain just to hit a dyn processor harder or change where the faders ride it won't affect the monitor mixes for every single band member. FOH would have to radio mons everyone they wanted to make a small gain change. Mons will have a digital trim also to make changes on their end.


That's precisely the problem!
At the moment, when you gain up, you don't hit the dynamics harder and it won't change where your fader lies. There is almost no benefit in this system, compared to a classic twin digital desk setup, where you set an initial usable gain, just decide with the other desk operator not to touch analog gains anymore, and adjust at FOH and MONS using digital trim.
I've spent several days on the CL5 already, in large scale situations, and although I can only compliment the quality of this new generation of Yamaha desks, my colleagues and myself have yet to get our heads around how this is a feature.

I can only agree, GC would be beneficial if you're not using analog splits, but it isn't. At least not enough to make it an amazing feature.

Can I lay this out again: you would maintain the benefit that everyone has mentioned so far about adjusting analog gain for clipping, but would be in a close to analog environment, if GC worked as follows:
-Set an analog gain.
-Enable GC
-if gain (not digital trim) is adjusted at FOH say +3dB, the volume on that channel should go up +3dB, while at the monitor desk, digital trim should compensate -3dB, and maintain the same volume on that given channel, maintaining levels to mix sends etc.

How is that not what GC should be doing? And you would maintain the benefit of being able to avoid clipping.
Hat off to anyone who can explain this clearly.
Cheers  8)
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Frederik RosenkjŠr

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Re: Yamaha CL Series gain compensation
« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2012, 12:11:27 pm »

I also assume this board is geared to the HOW market

You do realize that the HOW market that needs mixers like this is an almost exclusively American phenomenon, right?
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Samuel Rees

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Yamaha CL Series gain compensation
« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2012, 12:59:08 pm »

I think we are having a misunderstanding here. When GC is enabled (and I am going off how Soundcraft / Digico gain compensation works, so correct me if I'm wrong), the gain function on the main console works just like It would it was a single console. GC does let you juice up the gain on the main desk to hit a dyn processor. The gain compensated part is justthat it compensates the digital signals to the mon desk so it doesn't change. Then, the monitor board can use digital trim to make adjustments for dyns and etc.

I don't understand how you are saying this isn't useful if you don't have an analog split. If you have 2 digital consoles connected to 1 stagebox, it would be so easy to piss of your monitor guy real fast without gain compensation. Maybe I'm just not getting what you are saying? It's like your example of just using trims after the initial gain is set, except better because trims won't help you for clipping and you don't have actual control of the preamp.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2012, 01:01:45 pm by Samuel Rees »
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Yamaha CL Series gain compensation
« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2012, 01:11:19 pm »

You do realize that the HOW market that needs mixers like this is an almost exclusively American phenomenon, right?

For your amusement:

It's all about the 10:30am GodShow«.  The mega-churches and those that aspire to be like them pimp their particular flavor of faith in 75 minutes using all the technology of the very devil they oppose*.  The spectacle used to do this, while itself not uniquely American, has been re-purposed to meet their particular marketing objective... and I find that to be a mostly-USA phenomena.  "LX cue 3, VL3000 ballyhoo for the Gregorian chants.. GO" doesn't seem to happen as frequently elsewhere.

*  I had a crusade TD tell me one time that they needed moving lights "because the Devil has moving lights; Madonna has moving lights, god should have moving lights."  My reply was that god already had moving lights and to presume otherwise was probably blasphemy... the TD needed to spend some time outdoors at sunrise, sunset, and at night.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2012, 02:45:16 pm by Tim McCulloch »
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"Practicing an art, no matter how well or badly, is a way to make your soul grow, for heaven's sake. Sing in the shower. Dance to the radio. Tell stories. Write a poem to a friend, even a lousy poem. Do it as well as you possible can. You will get an enormous reward. You will have created something."  - Kurt Vonnegut

Val Gilbert

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Re: Yamaha CL Series gain compensation
« Reply #15 on: August 04, 2012, 01:21:03 pm »

I think we are having a misunderstanding here. When GC is enabled (and I am going off how Soundcraft / Digico gain compensation works, so correct me if I'm wrong), the gain function on the main console works just like It would it was a single console. GC does let you juice up the gain on the main desk to hit a dyn processor. The gain compensated part is justthat it compensates the digital signals to the mon desk so it doesn't change. Then, the monitor board can use digital trim to make adjustments for dyns and etc.

I don't understand how you are saying this isn't useful if you don't have an analog split. If you have 2 digital consoles connected to 1 stagebox, it would be so easy to piss of your monitor guy real fast without gain compensation. Maybe I'm just not getting what you are saying? It's like your example of just using trims after the initial gain is set, except better because trims won't help you for clipping and you don't have actual control of the preamp.

This is exactly the point, thanks for chiming in.
This is how it should work, but it doesn't. Have you actually implemented this and seen it work? If so, maybe there's a setup problem somewhere, but we've taken the menus apart left right and center, there's nothing we've missed.

Again, if I follow your saying:
2 desks, FOH and MONS. With GC enabled, when I turn up analog gain at FOH, the volume of the selected channel should change correct? ie the actual output of the channel should get louder? While the MONS desk should compensate that gain in the opposite direction to keep the level the same.
It's not doing that. There's a problem somewhere, and I think it's unclear exactly what GC is supposed to do.

I'm sure we'll get to the bottom of this.

 :D
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Samuel Rees

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Yamaha CL Series gain compensation
« Reply #16 on: August 04, 2012, 01:50:29 pm »

hmmm this might be because I have no experience with the CL gain compensation, maybe it works differently and others here can speak to that. I think there was a thread on it a bit ago.This video is super simplistic, but it clearly shows how GC on my little soundcraft works. Start watching at 5:12. Wait to laugh at how slow he is speaking until afterwords! :)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eApeU-76Lr4&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Is this not how it works on the CL?
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Mac Kerr

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Re: Yamaha CL Series gain compensation
« Reply #17 on: August 04, 2012, 01:58:54 pm »

hmmm this might be because I have no experience with the CL gain compensation, maybe it works differently and others here can speak to that. I think there was a thread on it a bit ago.This video is super simplistic, but it clearly shows how GC on my little soundcraft works. Start watching at 5:12. Wait to laugh at how slow he is speaking until afterwords! :)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eApeU-76Lr4&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Is this not how it works on the CL?

If you read the thread, Val has explained that in his experience with the console that is not how it works. I agree that the way the SC works would be preferable to what Val describes, but unless you are in a situation where levels can really be set up carefully, like a theatrical show, or in a HOW, sharing inputs is a bad idea. Anytime quick set up and good control is needed, use a splitter and have separate consoles.

The way the CL gain sharing appears to work it is limited to using the mic pre control to avoid clipping the input. If this is what you want to do with the mic pre the CL system is good. You correct the overload without changing any mixes. If what you want to do is raise the gain because you aren't getting enough level to mix with the faders at a reasonable position, the CL system requires 2 knob twists instead of 1.

Mac
« Last Edit: August 04, 2012, 02:01:58 pm by Mac Kerr »
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Samuel Rees

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Yamaha CL Series gain compensation
« Reply #18 on: August 04, 2012, 02:24:50 pm »

Interesting. Sorry I read the thread, I just wasn't getting it.

I get why it seems not very useful to you now. I wonder why Yam choose to implement it this way, if there is some option that changes this, or if it could be changed in a software update later.
 
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Mark Rombouts

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Re: Yamaha CL Series gain compensation
« Reply #19 on: August 05, 2012, 07:18:56 am »

Interesting. Sorry I read the thread, I just wasn't getting it.

I get why it seems not very useful to you now. I wonder why Yam choose to implement it this way, if there is some option that changes this, or if it could be changed in a software update later.

Only turn Gain Compensation on on the MON console. Not on the FOH console. Just like most other systems. Then it should work fine.
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Re: Yamaha CL Series gain compensation
┬ź Reply #19 on: August 05, 2012, 07:18:56 am ┬╗


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