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Author Topic: Yamaha CL Series gain compensation  (Read 29887 times)

Stian Sagholen

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Yamaha CL Series gain compensation
« on: July 05, 2012, 09:17:06 pm »

Has anyone got this feature working properly yet?
Feel like I have tried everything.
I.e: gigabit switch, redundant dante network, dante controller software.

The setup is
2x CL5 consoles
2x Rio 3224 Dante I/O


If i open the HA popup-window, there is three meters:
1: Post analog gain/pre gain compensation
2: post gain compensation
3: post Digital gain/ trim
#1 is not doing anything. All i get is the meter post gain compensation.

Also, if the "GC" button is on, and I try to increase analog gain, it seems like the compensation is pushing back and it doesn't get any louder. It just starts to distort when i reach a certain amount of gain. Still the same level.
I don't know what is causing this, but it should compensate on the console that you are using to increase gain. It should compensate on the other console(monitor).



Can anyone help me solve this? Should be plug and play but it's not.

Stian..
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Justice C. Bigler

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Re: Yamaha CL Series gain compensation
« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2012, 12:15:48 am »

My first call would be to Yamaha Commercial Audio technical support.
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Paul Vans

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Re: Yamaha CL Series gain compensation
« Reply #2 on: July 06, 2012, 05:11:18 am »

Sounds to me that you have fundamentally misunderstood how the CL's gain compensation system works.

It compensates for analog gain changes onto the network, hence 'it pushes back and doesn't get any louder', that is exactly what it is designed to do. It ensures that all consoles on the network receive a stable and constant signal, then use the digital gain in the console for the level change you need. Clever stuff but not very obvious out of the box.

Read the manual or give Yamaha tech support a call! I'm sure they can explain it for you.
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Paul Vans

Airton Pereira

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Re: Yamaha CL Series gain compensation
« Reply #3 on: July 06, 2012, 04:31:07 pm »

You mean it is compensating the mixer where you are increasing the gain? That's odd, try to compensate on the other mixer to compare.
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kristianjohnsen

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Re: Yamaha CL Series gain compensation
« Reply #4 on: July 06, 2012, 06:10:28 pm »

Sounds to me that you have fundamentally misunderstood how the CL's gain compensation system works.

It compensates for analog gain changes onto the network, hence 'it pushes back and doesn't get any louder', that is exactly what it is designed to do. It ensures that all consoles on the network receive a stable and constant signal, then use the digital gain in the console for the level change you need. Clever stuff but not very obvious out of the box.

Read the manual or give Yamaha tech support a call! I'm sure they can explain it for you.

My understanding is that Paul is onto something here:

One of the great things about the RIO boxes is that the gain sharing will work with any type of make of mixer.  For this to work, the RIO just provides the signal and the individual mixers just utilizes the signal however the operator sees best.  There is no "remote control" where one mixer controls the next mixer. 

Instead the "master console" controls the analog circuit, and at some point, whenever the "master console" changes it's gain after that, the other outputs are "gain compensated" to remain where they were.  If the master console guy floors the gain knob the analog circuit will distort, but still it won't be louder for the other recipients, it'll be equally loud, just distorted.

I know of one rental firm who just got a Dante-to-MADI bridge to use a Yamaha CL5 with RIOs in conjunction with a Avid Venue mixer.  There is no need for the Yamaha and the Avid to talk to eachother, all you need is conversion between the actual audio formats.
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Val Gilbert

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Re: Yamaha CL Series gain compensation
« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2012, 10:12:49 am »

Sounds to me that you have fundamentally misunderstood how the CL's gain compensation system works.

It compensates for analog gain changes onto the network, hence 'it pushes back and doesn't get any louder', that is exactly what it is designed to do. It ensures that all consoles on the network receive a stable and constant signal, then use the digital gain in the console for the level change you need. Clever stuff but not very obvious out of the box.

Read the manual or give Yamaha tech support a call! I'm sure they can explain it for you.

If the OP has misunderstood the functionality, then so have I, as well as all the engineers I have received on the CL5.
What you're saying is that GC (gain compensation) is actually a "gain lock" rather than a compensation.
Yamaha has confirmed to me that this is how GC is meant to work, however, someone needs to explain why. What benefit does this functionality bring that just agreeing to set an analog gain, not touch it anymore and just use digital trim for adjustments doesn't.

As I and others see it, the whole point of GC should be that you set a usable analog gain, enable GC, and then whenever any desk on the network makes an adjustment, it should raise the level (or volume) on that desk, and compensate the level on all the others, which is not what is happening currently. If not, what's the point?
Or am I/we missing something completely here?
« Last Edit: August 03, 2012, 11:27:19 am by Val Gilbert »
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kristianjohnsen

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Re: Yamaha CL Series gain compensation
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2012, 06:33:41 pm »

If the OP has misunderstood the functionality, then so have I, as well as all the engineers I have received on the CL5.
What you're saying is that GC (gain compensation) is actually a "gain lock" rather than a compensation.
Yamaha has confirmed to me that this is how GC is meant to work, however, someone needs to explain why. What benefit does this functionality bring that just agreeing to set an analog gain, not touch it anymore and just use digital trim for adjustments doesn't.

As I and others see it, the whole point of GC should be that you set a usable analog gain, enable GC, and then whenever any desk on the network makes an adjustment, it should raise the level (or volume) on that desk, and compensate the level on all the others, which is not what is happening currently. If not, what's the point?
Or am I/we missing something completely here?

Singer-dude starts to really belt it during show, preamp starts to clip.  FOH-mixer-dude turns down preamp circuit to avoid clipping, input to monitor console remains at same level, but clip-free.  Makes perfect sense to me :)
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TonyWilliams

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Yamaha CL Series gain compensation
« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2012, 01:40:01 am »

If the OP has misunderstood the functionality, then so have I, as well as all the engineers I have received on the CL5.
What you're saying is that GC (gain compensation) is actually a "gain lock" rather than a compensation.
Yamaha has confirmed to me that this is how GC is meant to work, however, someone needs to explain why. What benefit does this functionality bring that just agreeing to set an analog gain, not touch it anymore and just use digital trim for adjustments doesn't.

As I and others see it, the whole point of GC should be that you set a usable analog gain, enable GC, and then whenever any desk on the network makes an adjustment, it should raise the level (or volume) on that desk, and compensate the level on all the others, which is not what is happening currently. If not, what's the point?
Or am I/we missing something completely here?

My understanding is that there is one master controller, like a CL5, that controls the preamp inside the stage box. Any other output to other mixers via Dante is automatically compensated. This includes other consoles.
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Val Gilbert

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Re: Yamaha CL Series gain compensation
« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2012, 07:25:33 am »

Singer-dude starts to really belt it during show, preamp starts to clip.  FOH-mixer-dude turns down preamp circuit to avoid clipping, input to monitor console remains at same level, but clip-free.  Makes perfect sense to me :)

This does make sense, however, the headroom is so huge on the CL5, if you get that far, you should probably reconsider your gain structure rather than rely on such a functionality. It seems like a small benefit usable on very rare occasions, compared to the "hype" that this functionality has had.
I don't want to contradict, but does what most engineers I know have suggested not make more sense, as to be in the same conditions as if you had two analog desks with completely independent head-amps via traditional analog splits? In this situation, when you drive the gain at FOH, the volume on your channel changes, as well as the level in to your dynamics etc, while the level at monitors does not change.
Is this not what you would want in an ideal world?


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Samuel Rees

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Yamaha CL Series gain compensation
« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2012, 10:40:50 am »

That is why given a large budget, space and etc venues sometimes get an analog split anyway instead of digital sharing. That's how my regular gig is set up.

Using gain compensation is helpful given the circumstance that your are already not using a split system. It's not just about clipping either. If FOH changes a gain just to hit a dyn processor harder or change where the faders ride it won't affect the monitor mixes for every single band member. FOH would have to radio mons everyone they wanted to make a small gain change. Mons will have a digital trim also to make changes on their end.
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Yamaha CL Series gain compensation
« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2012, 10:40:50 am »


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