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Author Topic: Is it the speakers or the room?  (Read 51950 times)

Mark McFarlane

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Re: Is it the speakers or the room?
« Reply #10 on: July 03, 2012, 12:04:44 AM »

A few more questions:

Are the side walls concrete or wallboard?  Is there any acoustic treatment anywhere in the room?  It looks like a hard box with a sloping ceiling.

Are your observations of the 'bad mix' during rehearsal or during the service? Do you fill the church near capacity? 50%?

Have you eve tried only using the center speakers and turning off the JBLs?  Have you tried running the vocals only through the center speakers and instruments through the JBL side speakers?

Do the musicians bring amps, or are you using DI's with instruments only run through the PA system?
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Jason Lucas

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Re: Is it the speakers or the room?
« Reply #11 on: July 03, 2012, 01:51:10 AM »

A few more questions:

Are the side walls concrete or wallboard?  Is there any acoustic treatment anywhere in the room?  It looks like a hard box with a sloping ceiling.

Are your observations of the 'bad mix' during rehearsal or during the service? Do you fill the church near capacity? 50%?

Have you eve tried only using the center speakers and turning off the JBLs?  Have you tried running the vocals only through the center speakers and instruments through the JBL side speakers?

Do the musicians bring amps, or are you using DI's with instruments only run through the PA system?

The surface of the walls is just drywall, I don't know if there's concrete underneath, will have to ask the facilities director. We have no acoustic treatment.

The sound is usually a little better when the room is full of people, but I think a big part of that is that I can get away with more volume because the people "absorb" some of the sound. The issue of inconsistent sound (not bad, imo, just inconsistent) is present both at rehearsal and during the service.

We have tried only using the center speaker, but it doesn't sound quite as good because those center speakers are not as clear sounding and tend to sound harsh when pushed hard. We've tried running without the center speakers at all but the people in the middle of the room can't hear the vocals when we do that.

We've tried a variety of ratios for vocals in the speakers and for a long time had the vocals about 60% in the center speaker. I'm going to try 100% in the center again because it's been a while and I'd like to hear how that works out again. I never put any instruments in the center speaker, but I usually put vocals in both the center and the sides (which is what I mean by 60%, etc)

The guitar players use stage amps, and the drums are also very loud acoustically. To the point that I don't even like putting the overhead microphones in the speakers because they already sound too loud to me, despite our drum cage. The bass is now only direct (used to have a bass amp on stage), and both keyboards have always been direct.

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Brad Weber

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Re: Is it the speakers or the room?
« Reply #12 on: July 03, 2012, 05:48:05 AM »

We've tried a variety of ratios for vocals in the speakers and for a long time had the vocals about 60% in the center speaker. I'm going to try 100% in the center again because it's been a while and I'd like to hear how that works out again. I never put any instruments in the center speaker, but I usually put vocals in both the center and the sides (which is what I mean by 60%, etc)
How is the system wired?  How do you assign or route signals to the L/R pair versus to the center array?  How are signals routed to the subwoofer?  What processing is in the system?
 
Are the PRX535 aimed down at all?  From the picture, considering the platform height, stand height and where the horns are located in the 42" tall speakers, then unless the speakers are aimed down the majority of their output appears directed at the walls rather than at the listeners.  They also don't appear to be aimed to create stereo, more as though each is intended to cover one half of the seating.
 
Some acoustical treatment would almost certainly help that room and could benefit the musicians, congregation and system operator.
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Jason Lucas

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Re: Is it the speakers or the room?
« Reply #13 on: July 03, 2012, 10:54:01 AM »

How is the system wired?  How do you assign or route signals to the L/R pair versus to the center array?  How are signals routed to the subwoofer?  What processing is in the system?
 
Are the PRX535 aimed down at all?  From the picture, considering the platform height, stand height and where the horns are located in the 42" tall speakers, then unless the speakers are aimed down the majority of their output appears directed at the walls rather than at the listeners.  They also don't appear to be aimed to create stereo, more as though each is intended to cover one half of the seating.
 
Some acoustical treatment would almost certainly help that room and could benefit the musicians, congregation and system operator.

The subwoofer is sent a stereo main mix from the board, with the physical cables coming out of the two digital stage snakes. Then the two JBLs each get fed a 100Hz high-passed signal from the subwoofer. The center speaker gets an "AUX" that is treated by the board as a third [mono] main mix. Each of these mixes gets a 45Hz high pass filter from the board. The JBLs and the QSC sub are powered and have their own built-in DSP. There is no DSP for the center speaker.

JBL speaker angle - they are angled just slightly down due to the nature of how they sit on the pole mounts. We actually also started angling them inward a bit a few months ago toward the middle of the room.

I would love some acoustical treatment, but I don't know what size or shaped panels to buy or where to put them to maximize their effectiveness.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2012, 10:58:38 AM by Jason Lucas »
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g'bye, Dick Rees

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Re: Is it the speakers or the room?
« Reply #14 on: July 03, 2012, 11:12:48 AM »

The subwoofer is sent a stereo main mix from the board, with the physical cables coming out of the two digital stage snakes. Then the two JBLs each get fed a 100Hz high-passed signal from the subwoofer. The center speaker gets an "AUX" that is treated by the board as a third [mono] main mix. Each of these mixes gets a 45Hz high pass filter from the board. The JBLs and the QSC sub are powered and have their own built-in DSP. There is no DSP for the center speaker.

JBL speaker angle - they are angled just slightly down due to the nature of how they sit on the pole mounts. We actually also started angling them inward a bit a few months ago toward the middle of the room.

I would love some acoustical treatment, but I don't know what size or shaped panels to buy or where to put them to maximize their effectiveness.

May we assume that since you've got Roland digital snakes that you're using a Roland digital mixer?

Getting back to the thing about arrival times:

I would want to use output delay(s) to time-align the various speakers.  This would mean separate feeds to the subs, tops and center cluster.  Separate feeds would then give you the flexibility to feed only what you need to each of the three speakers.  This way you would feed only those things to the sub which need to be there:  kick, bass, keys for a start.  You could also use the center for "vocal only" (maybe a bit more, like making it a "solo" bus) and using a hi-pass filter set just as high as you can before compromising the material being sent to it.

Lastly, move the side, pole-mounted boxes as far as practical from the walls and shade them in towards the center to minimize the off-the-wall bounce.  A bit of comb filtering down the middle is much, much more preferable to a bunch of reflections off the walls.  Delay these side boxes back to the sub. 

You'll also want to have the capability of delaying the center cluster, but if you're using it mainly for vocals it probably won't be so critical since you'll likelywant the voices a bit "out front".

Now EQ to taste and see what you can get out of it.
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Jason Lucas

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Re: Is it the speakers or the room?
« Reply #15 on: July 03, 2012, 11:32:25 AM »

May we assume that since you've got Roland digital snakes that you're using a Roland digital mixer?

Getting back to the thing about arrival times:

I would want to use output delay(s) to time-align the various speakers.  This would mean separate feeds to the subs, tops and center cluster.  Separate feeds would then give you the flexibility to feed only what you need to each of the three speakers.  This way you would feed only those things to the sub which need to be there:  kick, bass, keys for a start.  You could also use the center for "vocal only" (maybe a bit more, like making it a "solo" bus) and using a hi-pass filter set just as high as you can before compromising the material being sent to it.

Lastly, move the side, pole-mounted boxes as far as practical from the walls and shade them in towards the center to minimize the off-the-wall bounce.  A bit of comb filtering down the middle is much, much more preferable to a bunch of reflections off the walls.  Delay these side boxes back to the sub. 

You'll also want to have the capability of delaying the center cluster, but if you're using it mainly for vocals it probably won't be so critical since you'll likelywant the voices a bit "out front".

Now EQ to taste and see what you can get out of it.

We are using a Roland digital mixer, but not the M-480. It doesn't have built-in delay times for outputs. So we'd have to buy something that would allow us to put a delay on the speakers.

We also don't have any sort of crossover, which is why we started feeding the mains from the sub, since it has a built-in crossover for that. We did AUX-fed subs for quite a while.

The speakers are as far inward as they ever will be. We tried moving them further in before but no one liked it.

So in otherwords, we could really use some DSP...
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There are three things I hate: Harsh highs, hollow mids, and woofy bass.

g'bye, Dick Rees

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Re: Is it the speakers or the room?
« Reply #16 on: July 03, 2012, 11:34:05 AM »

We are using a Roland digital mixer, but not the M-480. It doesn't have built-in delay times for outputs. So we'd have to buy something that would allow us to put a delay on the speakers.

We also don't have any sort of crossover, which is why we started feeding the mains from the sub, since it has a built-in crossover for that. We did AUX-fed subs for quite a while.

The speakers are as far inward as they ever will be. We tried moving them further in before but no one liked it.

So in otherwords, we could really use some DSP...

Yes, indeed.  Without it your location is situated at the head-waters.........as far up the creek as you can get.
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Jason Lucas

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Re: Is it the speakers or the room?
« Reply #17 on: July 03, 2012, 01:34:26 PM »

I was looking at this unit from Behringer: http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/CX3400.aspx

It looks like it has both a crossover and time delay, which are all we really need, and it's a lot cheaper than a DBX driverack. Do you think this unit is worth considering? It'd be a lot easier to sell the church on a $200 item than a $500 item.
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There are three things I hate: Harsh highs, hollow mids, and woofy bass.

g'bye, Dick Rees

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Re: Is it the speakers or the room?
« Reply #18 on: July 03, 2012, 01:40:53 PM »

I was looking at this unit from Behringer: http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/CX3400.aspx

It looks like it has both a crossover and time delay, which are all we really need, and it's a lot cheaper than a DBX driverack. Do you think this unit is worth considering? It'd be a lot easier to sell the church on a $200 item than a $500 item.

No.

You need a way to control the 3 output components you have (sub, sides, center) independently.  You'll want a speaker management processor with 4 inputs and at least four outputs, if not 6 or 8.  I can't make a recommendation off the top of my head, but perhaps someone else will chime in.

Basically you're looking to process each of the 3 separately and time-align them as much as possible using delay to get everything to work together........ or at least stop working against each other.

I would guess you're looking at $500 used up to $1200 new for what you need.  The Ashly Protea is commonly available used for a reasonable amount.  If your group wants to go cheaper, a DriveRack will synch up the sub and one set of speakers.  Just don't use the AutoEQ or RTA functions.  You'll likely be worse off than you are now....
« Last Edit: July 03, 2012, 01:48:54 PM by dick rees »
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Mark McFarlane

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Re: Is it the speakers or the room?
« Reply #19 on: July 03, 2012, 02:26:29 PM »

THe JBL PRX535 speakers probably are not your problem. These are decent speakers.  They show a nominal 90 * 50 pattern but I couldn't find a polar plot that shows what the real pattern looks like.

If you set up a single PRX535 in the middle of the stage area and play some music and walk around (as I discussed earlier) you'll get a feel for the best these speakers can do. 

Back to your current setup,

Imaging the 90 degree horizontal spread, try turning in the speakers so that the outside of the coverage doesn't hit the wall.   You can put some tape on the bottom the speaker showing the 90 degree angle to help you visualize how to aim them. This will be a LOT of turn in, i.e. the speakers will be pointing almost at the middle of the room (you haven't given dimensions yet), but you will get the wall reflections drastically reduced.  If all your vocal mics are going through the center cluster only then you shouldn't have feedback problem turning them in this far (unless you are micing or using sound hole pickups on acoustic guitars).

I'd also suggest using a tilt-down adaptor to point the speakers down at the congregation (using the 50 degree measurement to make sure you are keeping the sound off the ceiling), but these speakers are 76 pounds, I don't know of a tilt adaptor that would work with that heavy a speaker, you might need special stands...  It appears these speakers don't have mount points to fly (hang) them so you are somewhat limited in what you can do.

Regarding EQs and delay, that would be ideal, but you might be able to get by temporarily with:

1) Go back to an auxfed sub, set a low pass on the subs at the mixer around 63 Hz.  Only send bass, kick, and keys to the sub.
2) Set a high pass at the mixer on the mains around 65 Hz  (you'll need some measurement tools and experience to actually setup the crossover well)
3) Physically move the sub under one of the tops (this will get most of the delay problem solved)

I am assuming that your digital mixer (make and model please) allow you to set EQ on the aux and main outs.  Another option is to run a service without the subs and see how that works.  The PRX535s go down to 46 Hz +-3db, which is fairly low.  Having the subs so physically far behind the tops is causing a serious timing issue.  Everything in the crossover range (an octave or so) is going to be muddy because it will arrive at the congregations ears at 3 different times (left speaker, sub, right speaker). This means the bass response will also be very uneven in the room because the distance to the sub versus tops changes everywhere in the room.  I note that in a previous thread you said you had a lot of problems with the bass response being uneven - this is partly due to the timing problems you have with the sub along the back wall.

My tilt and aim + home-brew crossover solution is not as accurate as getting a proper crossover and delay but it is free and should get you 70% of the way to where you want to be.

I guess one remaining issue to resolve is why the vocals didn't sound good only going through the center speakers.  Not loud enough? Distorted?  How are these speakers powered and what kind of speakers are they?

Regarding treating the room, I think you are going to need a LOT of treatment in this room.  I leave it to one of the commercial guys (like Brad) who may know where to source large quantities of the right materials.  Whatever you do, don't buy foam and don't go cheap when you start to treat the room (fire is an issue).

We'll try to help you along online, but it sounds like you should bring in a professional consultant in the future if you really want a great sounding room.

FYI, I am not such a person.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2012, 02:29:58 PM by Mark McFarlane »
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Mark McFarlane

ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Is it the speakers or the room?
« Reply #19 on: July 03, 2012, 02:26:29 PM »


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