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Author Topic: Question on sub/system setup for EDM  (Read 22194 times)

Ivan Beaver

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Re: Question on sub/system setup for EDM
« Reply #20 on: February 27, 2014, 05:03:49 pm »

EDM is not very specific, is it Top 40 dance with not much below 45Hz or underground dubstep/dnb with lots of content below 35 Hz?

I have serious doubts that you actually need response into the low 20Hz range.


I admit I don't have a lot of experience in EDM (that will change next month however), but the shows I have done have 'drops" that go down to 20Hz or even below in some cases.

It depends on how important it is to the artist to be able to reproduce what they put on the record.

Even normal "pop" music goes pretty low.  Look at all the 5 string bass guitars out there.

The low B is around 31Hz.  So if don't think your system needs to go that low-I DARE you to go tell the bass player that he needs to remove his B string because your system can't reproduce it.

Or you could just tell him not to play it-----------------------------

There are plenty of "normal" music pieces that go well below 40hz.

Again-doe it matter if you can hear the music as the artist intended?
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A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

PHYSICS- NOT FADS!

Nick Enright

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Re: Question on sub/system setup for EDM
« Reply #21 on: February 27, 2014, 07:26:20 pm »

You've obviously not listened to some of the monitor systems we have provided for EDM shows---------------------

Of course it is the same signal-but does create some "mud" to the dance floor.

I guess I should say that there's a difference btw the stage volume of a band, and the stage volume of a DJ with booth out feeding his monitors.

And as it's basically the same signal, the FOH on the stages I've run/worked has been significantly louder and/or delayed to the monitor stacks. (Commonly -- nexo b1-18+alpha-ef or Meyer HP700+3pcs mica) Where the FOH rig will be twice if not many times louder/more powerfull than the monitors.


In the case of the band unless you're timing every instrument to a zero reference plane, there'll always be some mis-alignment zone about time zero, we could call it the zone of confusion. With DJ inputs with masters feeding FOH, and booth feeding Mons; this zone of confusion will be much smaller, and may be essentially eliminated.

With proper monitors and a sufficient FOH rig I've not had DJ's be so much of a problem in the last 5 years or so.
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Nick Enright
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Lyve Productions
Detroit, MI

Ivan Beaver

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Re: Question on sub/system setup for EDM
« Reply #22 on: February 27, 2014, 08:10:41 pm »

I guess I should say that there's a difference btw the stage volume of a band, and the stage volume of a DJ with booth out feeding his monitors.

And as it's basically the same signal, the FOH on the stages I've run/worked has been significantly louder and/or delayed to the monitor stacks. (Commonly -- nexo b1-18+alpha-ef or Meyer HP700+3pcs mica) Where the FOH rig will be twice if not many times louder/more powerfull than the monitors.


In the case of the band unless you're timing every instrument to a zero reference plane, there'll always be some mis-alignment zone about time zero, we could call it the zone of confusion. With DJ inputs with masters feeding FOH, and booth feeding Mons; this zone of confusion will be much smaller, and may be essentially eliminated.

With proper monitors and a sufficient FOH rig I've not had DJ's be so much of a problem in the last 5 years or so.
Our typical EDM monitor setup is a pair of TH118s with SM80s on top. 

I know of jobs that had the equivalent of 12 2x18" subs-tops had 4x1.4" hf, 8 12" horn loaded lows and 16 mids.

And the artist said it was "just oK" when pushed to the limits.

Can you say DEAF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I guess it depends on the artist and their "needs".
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A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

PHYSICS- NOT FADS!

Tim McCulloch

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Re: Question on sub/system setup for EDM
« Reply #23 on: March 01, 2014, 10:59:49 am »

Again-doe it matter if you can hear the music as the artist intended?

It depends on whether or not one considers the creation to be 'art'. /snark

What really matters is whether or not the CLIENT thinks 20Hz is worth paying for.  If not.... ;)
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"Practicing an art, no matter how well or badly, is a way to make your soul grow, for heaven's sake. Sing in the shower. Dance to the radio. Tell stories. Write a poem to a friend, even a lousy poem. Do it as well as you possible can. You will get an enormous reward. You will have created something."  - Kurt Vonnegut

Ivan Beaver

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Re: Question on sub/system setup for EDM
« Reply #24 on: March 01, 2014, 01:49:29 pm »

It depends on whether or not one considers the creation to be 'art'. /snark

What really matters is whether or not the CLIENT thinks 20Hz is worth paying for.  If not.... ;)
Art varies from person to person.

But I will say this-I could care less for EDM in a "normal" listening situation.

HOWEVER in a live situation (club etc) with a GOOD system that goes down low-clean and solid-there is something to be said for the "experience".

The regular "dance beats" are just boring to me-but a good drop can be a lot of fun-and you look forward to it.

But without a system that can do it-a lot would get lost.

In a couple of weeks i should get my fill of it in Miami during the WMC (Ultrafest) as we are providing for 3 venues.

But it is not something I would listen to at home or in my car.  Maybe I am just to old---------
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A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

PHYSICS- NOT FADS!

Tim McCulloch

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Re: Question on sub/system setup for EDM
« Reply #25 on: March 01, 2014, 02:13:20 pm »

Art varies from person to person.

But I will say this-I could care less for EDM in a "normal" listening situation.

HOWEVER in a live situation (club etc) with a GOOD system that goes down low-clean and solid-there is something to be said for the "experience".

The regular "dance beats" are just boring to me-but a good drop can be a lot of fun-and you look forward to it.

But without a system that can do it-a lot would get lost.

In a couple of weeks i should get my fill of it in Miami during the WMC (Ultrafest) as we are providing for 3 venues.

But it is not something I would listen to at home or in my car.  Maybe I am just to old---------

As providers it's a commercial decision based on client expectations and budget to meet same.  Art?  He works at the deli downtown, but he's the same to everyone. ;)

Just as soon as 16Hz is the new 40Hz (with equipment to do it full time) there will be 8Hz content.  There may be some now, as we found out in NYC in 2007, there was content in the track that killed the Quakes that nobody knew was there (12Hz, IIRC).
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"Practicing an art, no matter how well or badly, is a way to make your soul grow, for heaven's sake. Sing in the shower. Dance to the radio. Tell stories. Write a poem to a friend, even a lousy poem. Do it as well as you possible can. You will get an enormous reward. You will have created something."  - Kurt Vonnegut

Art Welter

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Re: Question on sub/system setup for EDM
« Reply #26 on: March 01, 2014, 03:10:20 pm »

Art?  He works at the deli downtown, but he's the same to everyone. ;)

Just as soon as 16Hz is the new 40Hz (with equipment to do it full time) there will be 8Hz content.  There may be some now, as we found out in NYC in 2007, there was content in the track that killed the Quakes that nobody knew was there (12Hz, IIRC).
Tim,

I may be retiring from mixing live sound on a regular basis, but I have not taken a job at the deli yet ;).

Not only is there 8 Hz content (Bass I Love You by Bass Mekanik springs to mind) there is loads of EDM with as little as 3 dB dynamic range below 100 Hz, the equivalent of running sine waves, double the average power of the 6 dB dynamic range of the EIA426 test signal used for almost all drivers.

Average limiters set to half the nominal power rating may become the new paradigm  :-\.

Art

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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Question on sub/system setup for EDM
« Reply #27 on: March 01, 2014, 03:51:47 pm »


Average limiters set to half the nominal power rating may become the new paradigm  :-\.

Art
People usually "freak out" when I suggest limiters (slow attack) at 1/2 the rated "continuous" rating of the loudspeaker.

They think "continuous" means constant.

I try to explain to them that the ratings are based on test signals that "try" to simulate music content-but that "content" is old and in my opinion does not reflect all current music styles-particularly dance music.

A lot of this music is basically sine waves-which is very hard on loudspeakers and starts to really show the difference in "burst power" amplifiers.

Those bursts are fine for "kick drum rock and roll" but do little for modern dance music.

THAT is what starts to separate the men from the boys in amplifiers.

How LONG can it provide the power and what level does it drop down to after that?

THAT is the thing the amp manufacturers want to keep "hidden"-but IS important for this type of music.

And when you add to that dance events that last for 72 hours NON STOP-no break between artists-no break between songs-no "slow" songs etc-the toll on gear can be tough.  So systems have to be "throttled back" so they are not being pushed anywhere near maximum.

Of course this means you have to bring more "rig for the gig", but at least it will keep working at the end.

The nice thing about "standards" is that there are so many to choose from-and I am not aware of a "standard" for EDM yet-unless you want to run sine waves AT THE MINIMUM IMPEDANCE and see what wattage you end up with.

But it will not be anywhere near the "normal" wattage rating-so it makes it hard to compete against products that are measured in a different way.

Most consumers (even "professional" ones) have no clue about how things are rated.

Heck most can't even read a simple freq response chart and tell you where the -3dB point is (in relation to the rated sensitivity).

They simply rely on what the manufacturers "says" it is-even if THEIR OWN GRAPH says something completely different.

OH WELL----------------------

It requires "effort" to be able "think" about specs-it is MUCH easier to just "believe" what they are telling you is the truth------

I'll stop now before I say what I believe
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A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

PHYSICS- NOT FADS!

Spenser Hamilton

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Re: Question on sub/system setup for EDM
« Reply #28 on: March 01, 2014, 04:12:08 pm »

Tim nailed it, OP needs to decide if 20Hz response will earn him more money than 40Hz or 30Hz response, that extra octave is an expensive investment.

I'll stop now before I say what I believe

Don't hold back!  8) I love reading your posts Ivan, so much truth.
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Question on sub/system setup for EDM
« Reply #29 on: March 01, 2014, 04:37:12 pm »


Don't hold back!  8) I love reading your posts Ivan, so much truth.

I will not mention any names or brands in the following true story.

Just this week we had a contractor (who does multi million dollar installs) question our choice for a particular loudspeaker for part of a job.

In this particular case-that loudspeaker would be highpassed around 200-300Hz.

But they were saying that brand "XYZ" (Very famous that EVERYBODY knows who it is) choice of speaker went lower than ours.  Ours was -3dB around 113Hz, and theirs 'said" -3dB at 56Hz (or around there).  HOWEVER if you look at THEIR OWN response graph-56Hz was more like 15dB down.  NOT 3. 

But they were not interested in looking at the graph-only the "simple" numbers on the front of the spec sheet.  You had to "turn it over-a lot of effort" to see the response graph!!!!!!!!!!

And it really doesn't matter-since all of that would be cut out ANYWAY via the highpass filter.

And there were other reasons why our choice would be better (especially since the REASON those speakers were being replaced was that they were failing---------so let's just replace them with the SAME THING that is going bad????????????? Makes sense to me-------------), but they seem to be "hung up" on the low freq number-that is meaningless in this particular situation.

So it just goes to show you at even at "the top of the food chain", there are falsehoods and people who don't understand even the basics and just want "simple wrong answers"
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A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

PHYSICS- NOT FADS!
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