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Author Topic: Question on sub/system setup for EDM  (Read 23919 times)

Nick Enright

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Re: Question on sub/system setup for EDM
« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2014, 06:23:01 pm »

First I have to admit
A) None of these techniques are my own ideas
B) This current thought process is totally inspired by an article in May's LSI
about the unique and amazing systems at the Ultra Music Festival.

OK, the question -
Who out there that's reinforcing EDM for live events(or other?)is combining different
subs to cover various freq ranges ? Not just slight variations, but different formats
altogether? I keep hearing that shouldn't be done, even with separate signals/frequencies.

I have been doing this for years, with a much smaller scale mind you, and I feel some of the results have been quite good. SO, the concept on a larger scale really interests me.

A couple of things I'm most interested in
* Is a five(or even six) way system overkill, and just outdated with modern technology and driver/enclosures? Who has pushed the envelope on this?

* How really difficult is getting the crossover region(s) coherent with mixed horns and direct radiators on larger scales ? - and what kind of slopes and filter types do better for some of these ? Does combining modest underlapping with specific filters ever help?-  etc.

* Do horn loaded subs do better for the lowest octave; or ... are there specific advantages to using DR boxes for that ( as in the UM Festival example).
I use blocks of horns to get extension, and that has seemed to do OK on the smaller scales
events I've worked with, so curiosity has set in there.

A few other things ...
Any general rules of thumb for this type of thing?(other than don't do it) ;)   
On the lowest infra bass region, what are some more common freq. bandwidths?
How far up do some of you go with these additional boxes; i.e. - past the traditional 80-100hz
or so sub/full range xover point?(as in the UMF example)
I do realize that this is all really only good for the bass driven EDM stuff, and wouldn't see real advantage to most live music.

Last note - This isn't a question about horns vs. direct radiators, we've all been down that road(too many times?)

OK, I might be over-thinking this, and Iv'e probably stirred up the waters enough for one day.
Thanks in advance
Taylor

I do a small EDM room with all nexo.

FOH- 2x Alpha Ef + 4x Alpha B118 + 4x CD18

The Ef is a full range 3way box going from aroun 60-80 up, adding the pair of B118 per single Ef give me lots of meat, they go a bit lower than the Ef alone. The CD18's give me the support down into the last octaves, and in cardioid mode keep it off the decks.

This is one of my favorite rigs and it's very easy to scale up, using the same ratios.

here's the corresponding monitor rig:

Nexo again: 2xPS15 + 2xS2

I have teched on a medium electronic stage, all Meyer, w/ 4 Milo hangs 2@8 boxes, outfill at 6 boxes; for subbage there were 22x Meyer HP700...
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Nick Enright
Owner / Engineer
Lyve Productions
Detroit, MI

Chris Van Duker

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Re: Question on sub/system setup for EDM
« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2014, 09:06:12 pm »

At InfoComm, EAW introduced a new sub in the new Avalon series.  I don't recall the model, but it is a 21" direct radiator with a horn loaded component in one box.  I have not yet heard it.  EAW engineering did tell me they have spent quite a bit of time tweaking the interaction between the two components to get the desired result.  I think they are on the correct path.

I do sound from time to time at Club Mighty in San Francisco, who were one of the early installs for the new Avalon series. They've got six of those subs in there, and I find them to sound very nice. It lines up a bit with what I've been thinking about EDM-oriented systems: that extension and dynamics don't necessarily need to go together; the really deep bass tends to have more continuous tones while the punchiness and dynamics happen more in the upper bass. Given these two different needs, it seems reasonable to take a different route to supporting each. The availability of DSP which can twist the phase of the two different subs around to play nicely with one another seems like a key to making the approach work. It's a bit reminiscent of the "kick bins" in some of the boutique club systems out there.
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Andrew Brubaker

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Re: Question on sub/system setup for EDM
« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2014, 08:40:01 pm »

What subs would you pair with 4 srx728 and what octaves would you put each set in?
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Andrew Brubaker

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Re: Question on sub/system setup for EDM
« Reply #13 on: February 26, 2014, 07:03:31 pm »

What subs would you pair with 4 srx728 and what octaves would you put each set in?

Anyone have any thoughts or recommendations?
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Spenser Hamilton

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Re: Question on sub/system setup for EDM
« Reply #14 on: February 26, 2014, 07:29:59 pm »


What subs would you pair with 4 srx728 and what octaves would you put each set in?

We need more info, how big is the crowd? Indoors/outdoors? What kind of music? How low do you (actually) need to go?

Assuming they met the requirements for extension down low, I'd probably just stack more 728's until I had the SPL needed. Obviously at some point of scale it would make more sense to switch to a higher output box though.



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Andrew Brubaker

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Re: Question on sub/system setup for EDM
« Reply #15 on: February 26, 2014, 10:17:41 pm »

We need more info, how big is the crowd? Indoors/outdoors? What kind of music? How low do you (actually) need to go?

Assuming they met the requirements for extension down low, I'd probably just stack more 728's until I had the SPL needed. Obviously at some point of scale it would make more sense to switch to a higher output box though.

The question I am asking is strictly for EDM style. Almost always indoors. 100-400 people typically. Ideally the lower the better (aka down to mid 20s or lower). I realize that the 728 do not do so hot down lower than 30. I would be glad for them to just take it down to around 28 or 29 (realizing that their -10 is around 27 and that it definitely won't be quite as powerful down there). I think more where I am lacking is in the "smack" range (80-100) or so. I have them set at JBL's recommended crossover setting around 80 but the mains just don't have enough smack to them (MRX525) because they really start to drop around 100 even though I have a crossover set to meet the subs. So I'm more looking for something to take that middle smack range and I'd rather not have the 728s cover that range and just keep them at their preferred crossover. (I also don't like the way the SRX sound in that slightly higher register as I have experimented with a crossover closer to 100 and wasn't terribly pleased with the results).

The other option of course is to start the quest over for different subs or build some LABs but I like the sound of the 728s for the most part.
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Mike Christy

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Re: Question on sub/system setup for EDM
« Reply #16 on: February 27, 2014, 06:00:28 am »

Just a thought.. "smack" range I think of as actually from the tops, not the subs, with "punch" or "whomph" from the subs... are your tops/sub  phase aligned through the xover region?

If a system has poorly phase response through the crossover point, you will be sacrificing that "smack/attack"  and it can be mush, at least with live sound, not sure about EDM...
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Nick Enright

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Re: Question on sub/system setup for EDM
« Reply #17 on: February 27, 2014, 10:39:09 am »

Just a thought.. "smack" range I think of as actually from the tops, not the subs, with "punch" or "whomph" from the subs... are your tops/sub  phase aligned through the xover region?

If a system has poorly phase response through the crossover point, you will be sacrificing that "smack/attack"  and it can be mush, at least with live sound, not sure about EDM...

absolutely, more so in some cases, since there is no (or little) stage volume.
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Nick Enright
Owner / Engineer
Lyve Productions
Detroit, MI

Ivan Beaver

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Re: Question on sub/system setup for EDM
« Reply #18 on: February 27, 2014, 12:05:54 pm »

absolutely, more so in some cases, since there is no (or little) stage volume.
You've obviously not listened to some of the monitor systems we have provided for EDM shows---------------------

Of course it is the same signal-but does create some "mud" to the dance floor.
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Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

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Spenser Hamilton

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Re: Question on sub/system setup for EDM
« Reply #19 on: February 27, 2014, 02:44:21 pm »

The question I am asking is strictly for EDM style. Almost always indoors. 100-400 people typically. Ideally the lower the better (aka down to mid 20s or lower). I realize that the 728 do not do so hot down lower than 30. I would be glad for them to just take it down to around 28 or 29 (realizing that their -10 is around 27 and that it definitely won't be quite as powerful down there). I think more where I am lacking is in the "smack" range (80-100) or so. I have them set at JBL's recommended crossover setting around 80 but the mains just don't have enough smack to them (MRX525) because they really start to drop around 100 even though I have a crossover set to meet the subs. So I'm more looking for something to take that middle smack range and I'd rather not have the 728s cover that range and just keep them at their preferred crossover. (I also don't like the way the SRX sound in that slightly higher register as I have experimented with a crossover closer to 100 and wasn't terribly pleased with the results).

The other option of course is to start the quest over for different subs or build some LABs but I like the sound of the 728s for the most part.

EDM is not very specific, is it Top 40 dance with not much below 45Hz or underground dubstep/dnb with lots of content below 35 Hz?

I have serious doubts that you actually need response into the low 20Hz range.

Just a thought.. "smack" range I think of as actually from the tops, not the subs, with "punch" or "whomph" from the subs... are your tops/sub  phase aligned through the xover region?

This, proper alignment between subs and tops would help with "smack"" or "punch". Upgrading to some more stout tops might help as well, SRX or STX would be a good move.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2014, 02:51:26 pm by Spenser Hamilton »
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Technical Director - Chatham Capitol Theatre/Kiwanis Theatre

ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Question on sub/system setup for EDM
« Reply #19 on: February 27, 2014, 02:44:21 pm »


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