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Author Topic: Speaker Placement for 14,000 sqft Nightclub  (Read 13471 times)

g'bye, Dick Rees

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Re: Speaker Placement for 14,000 sqft Nightclub
« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2012, 07:03:58 pm »

They've got about a 45 degree downward tilt to them, but yes the diagram is accurate.  It's not to scale though, so it makes the room appear smaller than it really is.

Scott.....

It's difficult to suss out things with a few posts, but the salient factors coming from "between the lines" are:

1.  An apparent DIY attempt gone wrong.

2.  An owner who wants input on how things are going to be done.

3.  An owners sibling with opinions and input.

Total these things up and I'd say that, given the history of the project to date, the best thing is to step aside.  Believe me, there's not enough money or other reward in the project given what appears so far.  The best you can do is wish them luck........or go through the grief of attempting to get it to work to their satisfaction for what they're willing to spend and then taking the blame for their poor decisions.
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Ryan C. Davis

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Re: Speaker Placement for 14,000 sqft Nightclub
« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2012, 07:28:33 pm »

Sometimes when I come across a train wreck like that I will bid it high and hope they don't call...hahaha but if they do, well, you've got some money in it. Make sure they know who the expert is and that they'll pay for your expertise.
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Ryan Davis

Scott Carneval

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Re: Speaker Placement for 14,000 sqft Nightclub
« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2012, 12:10:58 am »

Both very valid points, and I've been known to do that in the past.  But my thinking on this job is that BECAUSE the system is such a trainwreck that by the time I'm finished it will be a night and day improvement. 
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Ryan C. Davis

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Re: Speaker Placement for 14,000 sqft Nightclub
« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2012, 12:30:09 am »

Oh, I get it for sure. I love walking in and making such a huge improvement. I'm tempted to do it for free I love it so much, it's just a bad place to position yourself as a businessman.
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Ryan Davis

Greg Ruddell

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Re: Speaker Placement for 14,000 sqft Nightclub
« Reply #14 on: June 12, 2012, 01:22:23 am »

Renkus Hienz makes very good loudspeaker.. I don't use them, but if I am not mistaken the ST4R is designed to be arrayed. it's 40 degree spec is when it;'s arrayed. You can't just stick an array box on four corners of a dance floor like they are a "point and shoot box" and expect good results.

You are on the right track by swapping these out with some JBL 4215 95's,, but tow other problems also exist.  Not enough LF. you need double the subs. And you need sound reinforcement for peripheral zones. Sound design for a night club is all about keeping High SPL on the dance club and away from revenue areas, but it's a fine line. You have to be able to control those values.
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Greg Ruddell

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Re: Speaker Placement for 14,000 sqft Nightclub
« Reply #15 on: June 12, 2012, 01:33:38 am »

One more thing.. Acoustical treatment (while very worthy) isn't an issue here. And it's certainly not in the budget....rarely is in a night club in that context. If the club is filled with bodies it becomes academic. Calculate your dispersion pattern and your hang (not the Renkus boxes, they could work if you added about 4 more....bring your checkbook). What about 4 x JBL PRX 612 M's (aren't the Renkus boxes powered?)
Then add a couple more subs. The PRX's are only 50 vertical, 90 horizontal.
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Brad Weber

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Re: Speaker Placement for 14,000 sqft Nightclub
« Reply #16 on: June 12, 2012, 04:35:03 am »

Renkus Hienz makes very good loudspeaker.. I don't use them, but if I am not mistaken the ST4R is designed to be arrayed. it's 40 degree spec is when it;'s arrayed. You can't just stick an array box on four corners of a dance floor like they are a "point and shoot box" and expect good results.
The ST4R are intended to be used in arrays or singly as a point source type box and there are 40x40, 60x40 and 90x40 degree versions with that coverage being per box, not for an array.  Apparently, according to the paperwork the models installed in this venue are the 40x40 version.

You are on the right track by swapping these out with some JBL 4215 95's,, but tow other problems also exist.  Not enough LF. you need double the subs. And you need sound reinforcement for peripheral zones. Sound design for a night club is all about keeping High SPL on the dance club and away from revenue areas, but it's a fine line. You have to be able to control those values.
I had the impression Scott was planning on relocating rather than replacing the R-H boxes and thinking of using JBL AC2212/95 boxes for the peripheral fill you mention.  FWIW, I believe the AM4215/95 has been replaced by the AM5215/95.
 
One more thing.. Acoustical treatment (while very worthy) isn't an issue here. And it's certainly not in the budget....rarely is in a night club in that context. If the club is filled with bodies it becomes academic. Calculate your dispersion pattern and your hang (not the Renkus boxes, they could work if you added about 4 more....bring your checkbook). What about 4 x JBL PRX 612 M's (aren't the Renkus boxes powered?)
Then add a couple more subs. The PRX's are only 50 vertical, 90 horizontal.
The speaker patterns noted are all nominal patterns, i.e. the coverage is something like that at some frequencies, however at some frequencies of interest the actual pattern may deviate significantly from the nominal pattern.  And that may be what you need to watch, things like the X by Y nominal pattern that is actually Y by X or much greater than or less than that nominal pattern at some frequencies.
 
That is also why while people in the club may add more overall absorption, they may not be located where the energy from the speakers hits the walls and ceiling and acoustical treatment in an application like this may not be intended to decrease reverberation time but rather to try to control reflected energy from the speakers.
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Scott Carneval

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Re: Speaker Placement for 14,000 sqft Nightclub
« Reply #17 on: June 13, 2012, 12:43:32 pm »

One more thing.. Acoustical treatment (while very worthy) isn't an issue here. And it's certainly not in the budget....rarely is in a night club in that context. If the club is filled with bodies it becomes academic. Calculate your dispersion pattern and your hang (not the Renkus boxes, they could work if you added about 4 more....bring your checkbook). What about 4 x JBL PRX 612 M's (aren't the Renkus boxes powered?)
Then add a couple more subs. The PRX's are only 50 vertical, 90 horizontal.

Greg, are you sure you're familiar with any of the speakers being discussed?  The ST4R is a large format box with four 8" LF drivers, an 8" MF driver, and a 1" horn.  The two JBL's you mentioned replaceing them with would be a serious downgrade in performance and quality.  The AE4212/95 was mentioned as a fill speaker for the perimeter of the club, NOT a replacement for the dancefloor.  The PRX is a DJ box and again has no business as a replacement for the ST4R.  It would make a decent fill speaker, but that's about it. 
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Charlie Zureki

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Re: Speaker Placement for 14,000 sqft Nightclub
« Reply #18 on: June 13, 2012, 10:35:14 pm »

Greg, are you sure you're familiar with any of the speakers being discussed?  The ST4R is a large format box with four 8" LF drivers, an 8" MF driver, and a 1" horn.  The two JBL's you mentioned replaceing them with would be a serious downgrade in performance and quality.  The AE4212/95 was mentioned as a fill speaker for the perimeter of the club, NOT a replacement for the dancefloor.  The PRX is a DJ box and again has no business as a replacement for the ST4R.  It would make a decent fill speaker, but that's about it.


  +1  if the customer needed new boxes, I think the PRX is one of the last boxes I'd recommend.  They're ok for some weekend warrior/musician playing some light Jazz in a small club.....where everyone is drunk, and half are deaf and the others are concerned about their cheatin wives or kids joining a hippie commune..

   Hammer

   Hammer
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