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[Dennis Goh]

Short qus but lengthly story mode.

Started my small karaoke pub with friend for half a year ago.
As started with limited budget, using low end products for bass, nothing fanciful or decent compared to products owned by people here.

Goes like this:
There is an hour "dance" session before closing. average getting music 105db measured from some noobie spl meter in the middle of the small dance area. Size of small dance floor is only about 5m by 5 m. Beside it are chair/tables.

Loaned Wharfedale mx-f18b horn to test sound but due to its size, my partner forgo it. Place is small, so we tried to use all powered stuffs.

As i hv one evp-x18pb subs at home, & partner heard it before (for the price & sound) so we got 4 pieces of it.
(Reason is in my country, there is not much resale market for these items if we were to wind up, so smaller item we could bring home to keep)

Placement:
Two pieces placed side by side, "hide" under bar counter, another 2 were place in the corner of the said dance area. On top of one another facing the corner.

So far so good, every time just let the subs blink a bit on the limit light during the dancing time.

Untill last week there was this group of guys coming for drinks. After the dancing time, one guy whose was slightly drunk from the group chatted with my partner that the sound does not have enough lows to shake the floor & told my partner to visit another "big club" to hv a listen to their sound system, my partner could only smile & replied we will take note of his comments, after which that guy said get a subharmornic synthsizer to beef up the low end, cinema also using it.

(That said place is using turbosound array & stuffs, cannot compare. When business is making more $, we will change.)

Pertaining the comments from customer, partner tried running 35 hz - 40Hz sweep "alone" & got about 80 + 90db, glass/table/stools all vibrating. Just dun understand what that guy meant, could it be few octave lower?

Then goggle found>>
http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/EX1200.aspx
http://www.dbxpro.com/120A/index.php

Are these really so good?
Doing it the budget way.

If these can go so low, can the sub even produce the sound? Bang for buck?
Any advice?

Thanks .

[Tim McCulloch]

Hi Dennis-

The topic of bass enhancers and "subharmonic synthesizers" came up in the Subwoofer forum.

http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,3439.0.html

The subharmonic synths essentially create a true sub-octave; devices like the Maxx Bass work by making your mind "think" there are lower notes by using the upper harmonic structure of low notes to fool you.  Pipe organ builders have done something like this for a long time; the "Rezultant 32" is one such stop.  The reason?  Cost.  The bottom half-octave of a 32' pedal rank costs more to build that the other 2 octaves of the rank.  The notes that physically play create a "beat" frequency that is the fundamental pitch corresponding to the note being played.

You are right to consider that subharmonic synths can create notes that are below the ability of your speakers to reproduce them.

As for your customer and your partner... your customer is buying how many drinks?  It will take lots of consumption to pay for the speakers and power that will accomplish what he seeks.  Your partner's experiment shows that at the low end of the sweep, the subs are -20dB relative to your mains.  That's a LOT of level to make up.  Also, if your customer is listening to the electronic dance music at the other establishment, I can guarantee that the programme material may go a full octave lower than your current system, and the rig he his hearing is much more capable (and expensive) of doing the job than what you currently use.  Is it worth the investment to please this one drunk guy and be only as good as the other place?  To make a profit you will have to attract substantially more customers than you currently have, which may mean you have to be louder and lower than your competition.

Just some thoughts....

Have fun, good luck.

Tim Mc

[Dennis Goh]

You are right to consider that subharmonic synths can create notes that are below the ability of your speakers to reproduce them.

 Is it worth the investment to please this one drunk guy and be only as good as the other place?  To make a profit you will have to attract substantially more customers than you currently have, which may mean you have to be louder and lower than your competition.

Just some thoughts....

Have fun, good luck.

Tim Mc

Thanks for fast reply, i guess i did not search enough.

Well, if one piece of equipment really do make so much diff, i think i may get it, problem is i do not hear it personely before & i do not know if it really can make music sound so much lower? (out of those finer big clubs, most use very decent top notch eqs, i do not even think if they need it)

Well, if this guy can feel this way, MAYBE some others feel the same too. maybe i improve abit her & there..

Then > i notice behringer's sub syth is already out of production, they came out another called sonic exciter...
http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/SX3040.aspx   Is this even comparable to the original one?

Should i get it or get the DBX?

Edited: As my english is not very good. After reading that thread...trying to understand.

1)the maxx bass they say they cut off the low freq, then add in the higher frequency into the system so need more headroom for the main.

2)but am i correct that subharmonic is the machine never cut off the low bass, but it produce a lower bass to let the subwoofer produce?

Are these 2 products same?

found this on internet..  http://www.refusesoftware.com/lowender.html

a quote from > http://www.refusesoftware.com/faq/11
In a sense, Lowender and MaxxBass are actually opposites. Lowender is creating new frequencies lower than the existing ones (that’s the “sub” in subharmonic, meaning “below-the-existing”), whereas MaxxBass creates new frequencies higher than the existing ones.

Sub syth demo on same soundtrack of terminator salvation...
Can MaxxBass do this as well? Or Sonic Exciter from behringer? or get Driverack?

Am getting lost..

Thanks.

[Tim McCulloch]

Thanks for fast reply, i guess i did not search enough.

Well, if one piece of equipment really do make so much diff, i think i may get it, problem is i do not hear it personely before & i do not know if it really can make music sound so much lower? (out of those finer big clubs, most use very decent top notch eqs, i do not even think if they need it)

Well, if this guy can feel this way, MAYBE some others feel the same too. maybe i improve abit her & there..

Then > i notice behringer's sub syth is already out of production, they came out another called sonic exciter...
http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/SX3040.aspx   Is this even comparable to the original one?

Should i get it or get the DBX?

Edited: As my english is not very good. After reading that thread...

1)the maxx bass they say they cut off the low freq, then add in the higher frequency into the system so need more headroom for the main.

2)but am i correct that subharmonic is the machine never cut off the low bass, but it produce a lower bass to let the subwoofer produce?

Are these 2 products same?

found this on internet..  sub syth  http://www.refusesoftware.com/lowender.html

Am getting lost in this.

No.  One creates sounds an octave lower than the input, the other tricks your mind into thinking lower pitches exist.  I would also caution you as to using a subharmonic synthesizer.  If your current speakers only go down to 35Hz, they will go no lower; no "magic box" will overcome the laws of audio physics.  If you use such a device at low levels, there will be a perception of more low bass but attempting to raise the SPL of that bass will eventually (or quickly) result in damaged speakers.

What your customer seeks in the actual physical sensation of the lowest frequencies.  As I point out, doing this is expensive.  It requires subwoofers that can actually reproduce the very low frequencies at significant sound pressure.  It typically requires big power amplifiers to run those subwoofers.

I don't know where you are, but based on my experience in the USA I'd total up what you've spent so far on your sound system and multiply that amount by 4x.  That will be the amount of money you have to spend to even begin to compete (on a much smaller scale) with the establishment your customer also frequents.

In a printing shop I saw a sign that said "Fast.  Cheap.  High Quality.  Pick any two."  If you want fast and cheap, the job would not be top quality; if you wanted cheap and high quality, you'd best be prepared to wait; if you wanted fast and high quality, the job would not be cheap.  Such are the trade offs in subwoofers.  We could say "Low.  Loud.  Cheap.  Pick any two."

The software you link to is not typically intended to process a full mixed recording, rather it is to process selected elements or instruments in the song creation or mixdown process.  At it's core it is based on the dbx 500 and dbx 120 and is a subharmonic synthesizer.

The reason I am cautious about using things like this is above - you don't have high SPL/extreme low frequency capability to start with, and forcing such LF will damage your speakers at worst and lead to disappointing results at best.

And are you going to let 1 drunk guy influence your musical direction?  Remember that he's already been in your pub, drinking.  He likes *something* about being there that didn't involve extreme LF.  It's only after he is drunk that he has an opinion, and I question if you should make decisions based on one person's comments when you are in a marginal financial condition in a facility that has very low gross revenue potential due to the customer capacity.

[Ivan Beaver]

No.  One creates sounds an octave lower than the input, the other tricks your mind into thinking lower pitches exist.  I would also caution The reason I am cautious about using things like this is above - you don't have high SPL/extreme low frequency capability to start with, and forcing such LF will damage your speakers at worst and lead to disappointing results at best.

A couple of decades ago I got a DBX120 as part of a club buyout.

I took it on a heavy metal gig that I did regularly and my system worked well in the room.

So I put it in line and boy was it FUN!  Lots more low end and everybody was likeing it-UNTIL the woofers went poop!.

Power wise I was fine-but I did not have a handle on excursion yet-and simply tore the cones up. 

Back then (80's) using a high pass filter on the subs was pretty much unheard of-at least at the level of gig I was doing.  We did not have the tools we do now-and most of the learning was by trial and error.  More error-but we learned from those mistakes-albeit expensive at times.

As TIM says-BE CAREFUL-it is real easy to tear gear up.

[Dennis Goh]

  If your current speakers only go down to 35Hz, they will go no lower; no "magic box" will overcome the laws of audio physics.  If you use such a device at low levels, there will be a perception of more low bass but attempting to raise the SPL of that bass will eventually (or quickly) result in damaged speakers.

The reason I am cautious about using things like this is above - you don't have high SPL/extreme low frequency capability to start with, and forcing such LF will damage your speakers at worst and lead to disappointing results at best.

And are you going to let 1 drunk guy influence your musical direction? 

Understood clearly regaring the sub issue!  Thanks.

Well, i also do love the LOWs at that club, my jeans will just wobble almost always when i am inside that place.
(they are flying 3-4 pair of 18"s from what i remember, just that dunno what else is under that stage, when ever the life band starts > everything starts "moving" )

A couple of decades ago I got a DBX120 as part of a club buyout.

I took it on a heavy metal gig that I did regularly and my system worked well in the room.

So I put it in line and boy was it FUN!  Lots more low end and everybody was likeing it-UNTIL the woofers went poop!.

As TIM says-BE CAREFUL-it is real easy to tear gear up.

Thanks, guess is a no no to get the sub syth.

If there is a choice (trying to go active),which make/model that is known of would beliver the results?
[swapping it out with the actived sub i had at home.]

[Yosi Melamed]

I know the OP asked for Low end maximizer and BBE is a sonic maximizer ie not only low end, but isn't it relevant as well? What maximizing method does it employ, sub synth (lower octave) or extra higher harmonics (Maxxbass method)?

[Ivan Beaver]

If there is a choice (trying to go active),which make/model that is known of would beliver the results?
[swapping it out with the actived sub i had at home.]

Some quesitons
How much money do you have to spend?

How large of a size can you "tolerate".  Do you need to move these often?  Do you evern have to carry them up steps?

There are all kinds of various powered subs out there.

You have to start (just like with buying a car) narrowing it down a bit-in order to get any real answers.

[Dennis Goh]

How much money do you have to spend?

How large of a size can you "tolerate".  Do you need to move these often?  Do you evern have to carry them up steps?

There are all kinds of various powered subs out there.

Since if it is for my own home usage, may spend more if needed but keeping in mind "best bang for buck".

i do like JTR sub (saw it moves alot of air from youtube), Danly etc but the prices are high.

Someone ever recommended me SVS for music, but imo, still lacking in somewhere although it does go low, unless i have 4-5 piece of it. Many told me its almost impossible to get the same "feeling" from one sub when VS multiple subs.

Size: Able to consider anything 2.5 feet all round (LxBxH) for single 18".
Not moving it, no up the steps.
Like powered stuff for the plug & play factor only.

Hmmm.. from pub till home..hahaha

EDITED: Able to consider width 2 feet, height 2.5 feet, deapth 2.5 feet for  single 18" powered sub.

[Ivan Beaver]

Since if it is for my own home usage, may spend more if needed but keeping in mind "best bang for buck".

 Many told me its almost impossible to get the same "feeling" from one sub when VS multiple subs.

When people say "best bang for the buck" it can mean very different things.  The following is making several assumptions.

For example.  A single more expensive sub may be able to produce the same loudness as 4 cheaper subs.

But the 4 cheaper subs will not sound as good as the more expensive sub.

So is loudness all you are interested in?

What about how low it goes?

Soes sound quality matter?

All of these have different "bangs" and different "bucks".

You often have to choose between low and loud.  ANd that really depends on the type of music you are playing.  If you are talking basic "pop", then a having a sub that only goes down to 40Hz may be just fiine (assuming it is FLAT to 40hz and not 10dB down at 40Hz).

But for a lot of electronic music-a sub that is quieter in the 50-80Hz range-may ACTUALLY BE LOUDER down in the 30Hz range than the "louder" sub.

So whick one is louder? It depends on the freq of interest.

You cannot make a general statement that multiple subs are louder than a single subs.  Yes- if they are the same model number.  But there are examples in which a single sub may be way louder than multiple subs of a different model number.

For example-in our offerings-we have a single sub (not the matterhorn) that will take between 12 and 24 of various other models to be just as loud-at various freq.

So you would spend more money (and more physical size/weight) on the "cheaper" sub to be just as loud-also consider the cost of the amplifers needed.

So which one offers the most "bang for the buck"?

It is not just the price of the sub-but also the cost of the amplifiers-power distro-speaker cables and so forth.

All I am is saying is that there are many more things to consider than just price.  Sometimes the more expensive product is actually a lot cheaper-when you consider how many of other products it takes to do the same job.

Just like people.  You can get some "basic people" pretty cheap.  But can they do the same job as a more experienced/knowledgeable person-who you have to pay more?  It depends on the work you want done.

Many times cheap is only more cheap.  It does not mean it is better.

[ProSoundWeb Community]