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[Jason Lucas]

So after reading brian maddox's...let's just say unique IEM setup, I wondered if anyone here had some ideas for an IEM system we could use at my church, based on our current system setup, needs, and resources.

In case you don't know already, we use the Roland REAC system. Ours' includes an M400 V-Mixer:




And two S1608 digital snakes:



Giving us 32 inputs and 16 outputs on stage, plus 8 console inputs and outputs at FOH.

We really only have 12 AUX sends, since 4 AUXs are being used for FX sends/returns. One of these AUXs is being used for the Center main speaker and one is being used for the subwoofer. Which leaves us a maximum of 10 AUX sends and 18 total outputs (7 at FOH and 11 on stage).

We want a personal mixer for each instrumentalist, the lead vocalist, and one for mixing the background singers' floor wedge, for a total of 9 mixers. Ideally, the mixers would support at least 24 channels.

We really have no place to put a dedicated monitor console. There simply isn't room on stage for one. There also isn't any room in the sound booth to put a second console.

Our budget is less than $5000 at this time and isn't getting any bigger any time soon.

As far as complex vs simple, we want it to be as simple as possible for the band. It can be as complex as necessary for the FOH engineers to put together, we have no problem with that, but it should be simple for the people using it.

Ideas? Please ask questions if you need further explanation of our setup.

[Mac Kerr]

Ideas? Please ask questions if you need further explanation of our setup.

I have a question. What do you do when the singer turns themselves up in the wedge till it feeds back and then doesn't know they caused the problem because their mic is in every mix and they all take off?

Mac

[Jason Lucas]

I have a question. What do you do when the singer turns themselves up in the wedge till it feeds back and then doesn't know they caused the problem because their mic is in every mix and they all take off?

Mac

Actually this brings up another thing I wanted to mention: The controls on each personal mixer should only affect the levels for that mixer. That way if someone cranks the volume on their channel it won't bring it up in anyone else's ears.

I've never had feedback from a monitor wedge but if that was an issue we'd just continue to have the FOH engineer mix the background singers' wedge like we've always done.

[Mac Kerr]

Actually this brings up another thing I wanted to mention: The controls on each personal mixer should only affect the levels for that mixer. That way if someone cranks the volume on their channel it won't bring it up in anyone else's ears.

I've never had feedback from a monitor wedge but if that was an issue we'd just continue to have the FOH engineer mix the background singers' wedge like we've always done.

The scenerio I mentioned does not need the mic to be turned up in other mixes, only in a wedge mix. Once the feedback starts in that wedge it will be in every mix including the FOH mix, because it is a regenerative sound going through the singer's mic which is in the FOH mix and likely everyone else's mix.

Are your IEM mixes wireless, or wired? If they are wireless you will have to find a way to get the audio from the personal mixer back to the IEM transmitter, or have transmitters all over the stage, which may take up more room than a monitor console.

If you have never had feedback in a monitor wedge I applaud you!

Mac

[Jason Lucas]

The scenerio I mentioned does not need the mic to be turned up in other mixes, only in a wedge mix. Once the feedback starts in that wedge it will be in every mix including the FOH mix, because it is a regenerative sound going through the singer's mic which is in the FOH mix and likely everyone else's mix.

Are your IEM mixes wireless, or wired? If they are wireless you will have to find a way to get the audio from the personal mixer back to the IEM transmitter, or have transmitters all over the stage, which may take up more room than a monitor console.

Mac

I imagine the IEMs would all be wired except perhaps the lead singer. For that instance, something like the Aviom rack mount unit connected to a remote mixer would probably be best.

I get feedback in the mains usually, not the monitors, and that's just caused by using too much gain on too many mics. Turning down the gain a couple of clicks on a few mics takes care of the problem.

[brian maddox]

So after reading brian maddox's...let's just say unique IEM setup, I wondered if anyone here had some ideas for an IEM system we could use at my church, based on our current system setup, needs, and resources...

well, i certainly don't want to seem as though i'm selling you or anyone else on my 'unique' approach.  but i have a couple of possible ideas.

1.  i'm fairly certain given what i just read in the Midi implementation for the M-400 that the BCR2000 and/or BCF2000 midi controller can be used to adjust aux levels.  if you were satisfied with mono IEM sends [and i wouldn't suggest it but...] you could buy a few MIDI controllers, a headphone amp or two, maybe a RF IEM rig for the singer, some custom wiring for onstage, and you'd be set.  The Behringer controllers will 'learn' MIDI, so programming them from the roland wouldn't be all that difficult.  maybe the trickiest part of the whole deal would just be getting the MIDI signal back to FOH.  but if you want to do this, i can tell you how to solve that issue if you'd like.

2.  Maybe SAC?  if you can input the REAC directly into the computer using a card of some type you could definitely generate all the mixes you could stand.  i don't really know much about the REAC protocol.  SAC can get a little troublesome to set up, but this would work if you're not afraid of Windows OS [as i am].

you've already read my article, so i won't go on about 01V96s in this application.  but 2 01V96s would do 10 stereo mixes handily.  still, it'd be a bit tight to get that rig done for less than 5K once you add in splits and wiring and controllers and various other miscellany...  6K isn't out of the question though with some careful shopping.

some other random thoughts...  i wouldn't use an onstage personal mixer to feed any open speaker.  it just doesn't work well.  if you've just got the one wedge mix, i'd continue to do that from FOH.

you can do mono with the mixing you have available, but you're really gonna want to go stereo.  and if you go stereo, you're gonna need to add some additional mixer to your rig.  if you're adding mixing, i'd be looking for something easily remote controllable. 

[Jason Lucas]

well, i certainly don't want to seem as though i'm selling you or anyone else on my 'unique' approach.  but i have a couple of possible ideas.

1.  i'm fairly certain given what i just read in the Midi implementation for the M-400 that the BCR2000 and/or BCF2000 midi controller can be used to adjust aux levels.  if you were satisfied with mono IEM sends [and i wouldn't suggest it but...] you could buy a few MIDI controllers, a headphone amp or two, maybe a RF IEM rig for the singer, some custom wiring for onstage, and you'd be set.  The Behringer controllers will 'learn' MIDI, so programming them from the roland wouldn't be all that difficult.  maybe the trickiest part of the whole deal would just be getting the MIDI signal back to FOH.  but if you want to do this, i can tell you how to solve that issue if you'd like.

Since I'm not the one using them, of course I don't care if they're mono, but everyone tells me they should be stereo . So this method probably won't work without another mixer to add another 8 or so AUX sends.

2.  Maybe SAC?  if you can input the REAC directly into the computer using a card of some type you could definitely generate all the mixes you could stand.  i don't really know much about the REAC protocol.  SAC can get a little troublesome to set up, but this would work if you're not afraid of Windows OS [as i am].

I'm a Windows guy. Our recording PC has Windows and is actually connected to the FOH board via Cat5 cable already, but I don't know if I can transfer info from the SAC over REAC. Unfortunately the M-400 has no slots for addon cards.

you've already read my article, so i won't go on about 01V96s in this application.  but 2 01V96s would do 10 stereo mixes handily.  still, it'd be a bit tight to get that rig done for less than 5K once you add in splits and wiring and controllers and various other miscellany...  6K isn't out of the question though with some careful shopping.

some other random thoughts...  i wouldn't use an onstage personal mixer to feed any open speaker.  it just doesn't work well.  if you've just got the one wedge mix, i'd continue to do that from FOH.

you can do mono with the mixing you have available, but you're really gonna want to go stereo.  and if you go stereo, you're gonna need to add some additional mixer to your rig.  if you're adding mixing, i'd be looking for something easily remote controllable.

So...it still looks like the M48s are still the best option. 40 channels with 16 stereo groups. Wouldn't require any additional gear other than an S4000D distributor. Simplest setup, most options. Unfortunately it's also way out of our budget. So frustrating.

The Avioms seem like the next best thing. If we don't include any background vocals (since they'll be in the wedges) and only put two or three drum mics in there, 16 channels should be enough. Movek MyMix looks pretty good too. I've looked at Hearback, but 8 channels is really not enough. Also looked at the new Behringer system, but no one wants to use stuff from Behringer, they consider their stuff to be trash.

[brian maddox]

I'm a Windows guy. Our recording PC has Windows and is actually connected to the FOH board via Cat5 cable already, but I don't know if I can transfer info from the SAC over REAC. Unfortunately the M-400 has no slots for addon cards.

is that cat5 bringing multi-track audio into your PC?  and if so, what format does it use?  i'm not really familiar with how the roland system works, so forgive me if this is kind of a stupid question.

i'm asking because, if you can get your channels out of your FOH desk and into a Windows PC, and you're comfortable working with PCs, running an SAC system is a very compelling way to go.  in fact, you can do multi-track recording using SAWStudio and the monitor mixing using SAC on the SAME pc simultaneously.  have you looked into that option more closely to see if it could work for you? 

[Jason Lucas]

is that cat5 bringing multi-track audio into your PC?  and if so, what format does it use?  i'm not really familiar with how the roland system works, so forgive me if this is kind of a stupid question.

i'm asking because, if you can get your channels out of your FOH desk and into a Windows PC, and you're comfortable working with PCs, running an SAC system is a very compelling way to go.  in fact, you can do multi-track recording using SAWStudio and the monitor mixing using SAC on the SAME pc simultaneously.  have you looked into that option more closely to see if it could work for you?

Actually the audio source comes from the digital out on the rear of the console. An optical cable goes from there into an Edirol FA-66 interface and into Cakewalk SONAR. SONAR is made to work with the REAC system, so I don't think other DAWs will work with this exact setup, they'd probably have to go the more traditional route of using something like a few FireStudios or other 8 input interface.

I think the Cat5 connection is a "split". Here's a pdf of our setup: http://rolandsystemsgroup.com/assets/Media/pdf/sonar_digrm_strd.pdf

"The SONAR REAC Recording System when used in conjunction with the V-Mixing System or Digital Snakes provides the a comprehensive live recording, mixing, mastering and delivery product available. The REAC driver enables users to record from their Digital Snake/V-Mixer System directly into SONAR. The SONAR REAC Recording System includes:

    SONAR Producer
    REAC Driver Kit
    Cakewalk Approved Hardware Monitoring Device
    SONAR Templates
    Users Guides

The REAC protocol provides up to 40 channels of audio to be sent via a single CAT5e Ethernet or fiber optic cable. The REAC driver, developed by Cakewalk, allows the REAC output from the V-Mixer or Digital Snake to connect directly into a PC using a single Ethernet cable.

** Note that this SONAR recording solution is available exclusively through Roland Systems Group resellers. A standard SONAR package from Cakewalk does not include the ability to capture from REAC."

I will read up on SAC though.

[brian maddox]

Actually the audio source comes from the digital out on the rear of the console. An optical cable goes from there into an Edirol FA-66 interface and into Cakewalk SONAR. SONAR is made to work with the REAC system, so I don't think other DAWs will work with this exact setup, they'd probably have to go the more traditional route of using something like a few FireStudios or other 8 input interface.

I think the Cat5 connection is a "split". Here's a pdf of our setup: http://rolandsystemsgroup.com/assets/Media/pdf/sonar_digrm_strd.pdf

I will read up on SAC though.

tracked down this conversation that would lead one to believe that interfacing REAC to SAC is a non-starter.  bummer.

http://www.sawstudiouser.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-12942.html

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