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Author Topic: Advice Building Outdoor Stage  (Read 13987 times)

Andrew Welker

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Re: Advice Building Outdoor Stage
« Reply #10 on: June 01, 2012, 10:53:02 am »

Something I would suggest, and have seen done in my hometown of Gypsum, CO, is to add a pair of large PVC conduits, probably 12" diameter. If there is something out there, I would also suggest drilling holes in it to allow water to drain out so cables don't get wet/muddy. These conduits would run from either side of stage back to the mix position so that you can run multicore and whatever else you might need from the Mix position to stage without running the risk of the audience stepping on them or tripping over them. These just end in a typical underground vault on either side of the stage. Make sure you have a rope or nylon pull string in the conduit so that you can pull cables through easily.

You'll probably also want to come up with a solution to get road cases from the stage/loading dock area out to the mix position without running over the grass, since it is relatively difficult to push road cases through grass.
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Hal Bissinger/COMSYSTEC

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Re: Advice Building Outdoor Stage
« Reply #11 on: June 01, 2012, 01:29:13 pm »

Quote
Zoning and permits are taken care of.  The church has been working with the county building department and following their recommendations.  A structural engineer, a contractor, and concrete specialists are advising each step for local standards.  To the county, this project is classified as "landscaping," just a concrete slab on private property.  The church hopes to avoid permanent rails and ramps etc. until the budget can afford them.

Those tires are a nice touch. :o 
 
It never ceases to amaze me what churches will come up with and think they should be able to get away with because they are a church and have limited funds. I find it difficult to believe that a structural engineer or a concrete contractor gave this mess their blessing- unless they are  members of the church.
 
Peoples safety and lives are at stake here. Either do it right or don't do it at all.
 
-Hal
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g'bye, Dick Rees

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Re: Advice Building Outdoor Stage
« Reply #12 on: June 01, 2012, 04:52:58 pm »

Something I would suggest, and have seen done in my hometown of Gypsum, CO, is to add a pair of large PVC conduits, probably 12" diameter. If there is something out there, I would also suggest drilling holes in it to allow water to drain out so cables don't get wet/muddy.


Those same drain holes will let the water in.......

If you're going to use PVC or the like for cable conduits, make sure it's run at a pitch so that any water getting in will drain off  to one end or the other.  Then run a T at the low end and put a large barrel or other catch basin at that end.  Seal it up good and then just pump it out as needed.  But if it's done right that's just insurance.  You shouldn't be getting anything other than condensation in there in the first place.
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Andrew Welker

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Re: Advice Building Outdoor Stage
« Reply #13 on: June 01, 2012, 06:21:05 pm »

Those same drain holes will let the water in.......

If you're going to use PVC or the like for cable conduits, make sure it's run at a pitch so that any water getting in will drain off  to one end or the other.  Then run a T at the low end and put a large barrel or other catch basin at that end.  Seal it up good and then just pump it out as needed.  But if it's done right that's just insurance.  You shouldn't be getting anything other than condensation in there in the first place.

Good points. I just know that the conduits at the venue I mentioned tend to have water in them for some reason.
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Brad Weber

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Re: Advice Building Outdoor Stage
« Reply #14 on: June 02, 2012, 07:13:35 am »

Very good comments, I know this is an ambitious project and want to do it right.  While we want to lay the ground work for future expansion, the church's current priority is to have summer services for up to 125 people.  Occasional special events of 500 - 1200 are realistic max attendances, 10,000 is of no immediate concern, but it would be nice to be able to grow without re-doing everything.  The budget is small, so we want to direct it toward the essentials for somewhat low key events now, and add as we go.
I am very glad to hear you have addressed the zoning, code and permitting aspects and have appropriate design professionals involved.  Since you have them, I would leave them to address their areas of expertise and focus on the functionality and use aspects.
 
I think the biggest challenge in offering specific input is not knowing much about the envisioned use or the budget.  I'm not talking just the number of people but things such as the types and number of events and performances, the resources you have to handle them.  For example, what capabilities would you want to have or need to have integrated so that they are there all the time?  Would it make sense to have everything for the summer services more permanently integrated or is it practical to set up and tear down each time for those uses?  What would a summer service be like, would it have a praise band or a choir and if so, what provisions would be required for the technical systems and the general facilities to support them?  Would the church use the facility or allow others to use it or even rent it for events other than services (which could affect whether ADA compliance is required)?
 
It may be possible to have an audio system that can be adjusted to serve a variety of events and audience sizes but it may not be feasible to do so for the full range of events and audience sizes envisioned.  My experience with similar venues is that how often different types of events or audiences have to occur routinely enough to justify the cost associated with systems and provisions that could be configured to handle them.  What range of uses and events would be considered very likely to happen on a fairly regular basis?  How often do you envision the 125 person events, the 500 person events and the 1,200 person events?  Would the associated events be similar other than the audience size or might they vary significantly in their needs?
 
On a detail, beware of industry specific terminology.  For example, many people use the terms 'pipe' and 'conduit' interchangeably in relation to PVC but they are not the same.  For example, there is 12" PVC pipe but not 12" PVC conduit.  And temporary cable may be able to be run in PVC pipe but permanent cable may have to be in PVC conduit.  I would also be very careful about the use of terms such as "stage" as a stage may push you into an entirely different set of considerations than a patio, deck, platform or similar.
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Charlie Zureki

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Re: Advice Building Outdoor Stage
« Reply #15 on: June 02, 2012, 11:40:39 am »


Those tires are a nice touch. :o 
 
It never ceases to amaze me what churches will come up with and think they should be able to get away with because they are a church and have limited funds. I find it difficult to believe that a structural engineer or a concrete contractor gave this mess their blessing- unless they are  members of the church.
 
Peoples safety and lives are at stake here. Either do it right or don't do it at all.
 
-Hal

  +1

  I find it difficult to believe that any inspectors or building officials would allow tires to be used either.  In fact,  since they are compressable or compactable, it makes their use illegal as a filler, or as a concrete form.   I think someone is either misrepresenting this project to the City or County inspectors or, there is no permits being sought.

   There are so many things wrong with this,...for example, there has been no mention of perk tests, or soil run off studies.    The electrical panel was not installed to code. Any flat surface above 36" of grade must have guard rails....at least detatchable guard rails... staircases, ramps for the disabled.   And, there's no mention of runoff drainage.

   This whole project doesn't make sense.    If one were serious in having an outdoor event, but, did not want to incurr the high costs, they might consider temporary staging such as "Stage-right" and set it up and then remove it after every event.  But, permitting would probably also required in regards to safety and runoff drainage.

   Hammer
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Jay Barracato

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Re: Advice Building Outdoor Stage
« Reply #16 on: June 02, 2012, 12:09:37 pm »

Anywhere east of the Mississippi all that pile of tires represents is someone shifting the burden for hazardous waste removal to the church.

Even if all they are is a retaining wall, it still wouldn't fly in any area I have worked in.

I also know that here in Md any slab big enough to support any type of structure requires footers.
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Jay Barracato

David Schulz

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Re: Advice Building Outdoor Stage
« Reply #17 on: June 02, 2012, 10:47:55 pm »

Hello all. I am directly involved with this project.

In response to your negative comments about the RETAINING WALL ( as in to make dirt square and hold it) the County Building Department are the originators of this idea. We were first looking at building a traditional concrete retaining wall, they suggested the tires, and said it was a good idea. Apparently, this is done a lot in this area with success.

We have been building structure's (Homes, Commercial..etc) for over 20 years as licensed general contractors, and EVERYTHING we have built is to code and structurally sound. There is no structure being built on this "platform".

"The electrical panel was not installed to code" I'm sorry what? That panel was installed by a certified electrician and passed inspection. Not only that, what you see is not the finished product.

Perk and soil test have been done and passed. We are Commercially Zoned. There is much more going on with this project then what Jeremy has communicated. This "platform" is a side project.

Most likely there will be four to five church services this summer with a very simple sound system.

I will also be one of the main users of this "platform", endangering my life with that 3.5 foot drop off.

Some of you guys are really dramatic. 
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John Livings

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Re: Advice Building Outdoor Stage
« Reply #18 on: June 03, 2012, 12:45:46 am »

[Anywhere east of the Mississippi all that pile of tires represents is someone shifting the burden for hazardous waste removal to the church.]

+1

Or West.

Is this project in the United States?

If it is, the information I stated above (Gentle Sloping) would still require Soil Engineering and a "Grading Permit"

Hiring Professionals sounds like a plan at this point.

Regards,  John


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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Advice Building Outdoor Stage
« Reply #19 on: June 03, 2012, 11:03:30 am »

Hello all. I am directly involved with this project.

In response to your negative comments about the RETAINING WALL ( as in to make dirt square and hold it) the County Building Department are the originators of this idea. We were first looking at building a traditional concrete retaining wall, they suggested the tires, and said it was a good idea. Apparently, this is done a lot in this area with success.

We have been building structure's (Homes, Commercial..etc) for over 20 years as licensed general contractors, and EVERYTHING we have built is to code and structurally sound. There is no structure being built on this "platform".

"The electrical panel was not installed to code" I'm sorry what? That panel was installed by a certified electrician and passed inspection. Not only that, what you see is not the finished product.

Perk and soil test have been done and passed. We are Commercially Zoned. There is much more going on with this project then what Jeremy has communicated. This "platform" is a side project.

Most likely there will be four to five church services this summer with a very simple sound system.

I will also be one of the main users of this "platform", endangering my life with that 3.5 foot drop off.

Some of you guys are really dramatic.

Hi David-

I'll address your last comment first.  Drama?  Only because some of us have experienced the comedy of having to remove completed work when our clients hadn't met local codes for the underlying work that was done prior to our install.  You and Jeremy don't say where this project is located (and that's okay), but I think either your local codes or zoning are much less stringent than what the contrarians have encountered, or your local authority having jurisdiction is not defining the project in the way many of us are accustomed to seeing.

I would take the comments about hand rails as an example.  They really *are* needed from both a OSHA and general liability perspective.  One of my stagehand brothers took a header off a 4' stage and is now permanently disabled.  He's covered by workman's comp, but a non-employee on your stage who had a similar incident would represent 100% liability to the church and its insurer.  And I would think that not taking common safety measures would represent "bad stewardship" of funds and of the 'safety trust' placed by the congregation in its leadership.

The electrical panel is another obvious issue.  It appears to be a indoor-rated panel that is installed outdoors and exposed to the elements.  Does it never rain there?  That your local AHJ overlooked this obvious (and in my experience, never-waived requirement) makes me think the inspectors are either incompetent, have an agenda that benefits the churches finances or that the Code as adopted locally is fundamentally lax in a way that endangers people.  Even here in Kansas, that wouldn't fly.

I don't doubt your personal integrity or honesty, David, but what we've seen and been told about this project would not pass preliminary muster in the locales most of us work in.  Nothing more and nothing less.  Some have learned the hard and expensive way and the comments posted here seem to have been offered to prevent this church from having that experience.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2012, 11:05:23 am by Tim McCulloch »
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