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[Steve Toulch]

We’re looking at installing a 70v distributed system at our driving range.
 
We’d like something for background music – not so loud as to irritate the guests teeing off, no booming bass, mainly rock / pop tunes.
 
I'm looking at the entry level Yorkville C110 Coliseum Mini speakers because they have taps for 10, 20, 30 watts. Was also looking at the JBL entry level control speakers but they only have a 5w 70v option and they're twice the price.

I’ve attached a drawing of our facility with measurements. I’m trying to determine how many speakers we will need for good coverage (my preference is to have more speakers at lower volume so there are no “hot spots”). I was thinking of using 14-16 speakers place approx 16' apart and attached to the top of our 4' fence.
 
We plan on using a Yamaha mx6150 amp capable of 70v 240watts bridged and running 14/2 speaker cable through conduit.
 
How many speakers would you recommend?
Would we be better off running them on 2 channels or bridging the channels?

thanks for your help!

[Ivan Beaver]

First and foremost-the speaker choosen MUST be weather proof.  As they will be exposed completely to the elements.

Since you are not looking for high levels-and the speakers are pretty close to the people-you won't need a lot of level.

I would run a single 70V line and be done with it.

How many-that would depend on the budget-but since people are not there to listen to the music-the coverage does not need to be as even as you would normally do.  However you don't want huge gaps-because some tees would be loud and others quiet.

Of course this might be a good thing-and people could choose how loud they want the music?

[g'bye, Dick Rees]

Steve....

I'd think that getting them up higher than the fence would be to everyones advantage.  Fewer "hot" spots and a more even and benign coverage.  Halve the mounting points, double up on the speakers at those points and splay them outward to even the coverage.

I'm just thinking that with them at only fence height you'll run into some problems with the "perceived" loudness and presence.

[Ryan C. Davis]

what about landscape speakers? It looks like a nice facility and I would think speakers on the posts or higher will be less desired aesthetically. With a similar arrangement of Landscape speakers you could accomplish the same end goal. It may not sound as good but as mentioned, the patrons aren't there to listen to music. The other pro is that the landscape speakers are meant to be directly exposed to the elements. There are actually some landscape speakers we've used that sound dang good. Of course, they come with a price tag.

[Mac Kerr]

what about landscape speakers? It looks like a nice facility and I would think speakers on the posts or higher will be less desired aesthetically. With a similar arrangement of Landscape speakers you could accomplish the same end goal. It may not sound as good but as mentioned, the patrons aren't there to listen to music. The other pro is that the landscape speakers are meant to be directly exposed to the elements. There are actually some landscape speakers we've used that sound dang good. Of course, they come with a price tag.

The added advantage of landscape speakers is you may be able to get them closer to the tees so they can be run at lower levels so they don't bother the people in the rooms across the street.

Mac

[Ivan Beaver]

The added advantage of landscape speakers is you may be able to get them closer to the tees so they can be run at lower levels so they don't bother the people in the rooms across the street.

Mac

And they would be on a lower tap-so less power required.

I would agree with the landscape idea.

I have only done one install with landscape speakers (we used a sub also (big rock) and it worked fine for the intended usage-and looked better than "normal" speakers.  So my mind went blank about that idea.  Glad it was brought up.

[Steve Toulch]

Thanks For all the resonses guys,

I'll reply to all the posts below:

weather resistant. The speakers I'm looking at are weather resistant. We're also worried about theft, so the speakers will be brought in each night (they're pretty small and easy to move) or we will build some boxes to house them. I'd stick a 1/4" connector on each speaker line, this would make it easy for staff to remove them and set them up.

I've looked at garden speakers, the problem is they are 3 to 4 times the cost per speaker. (including transformers between $150 - $200+ each). Also, there isn't much space between the tee boxes and I don't want speakers in front of the tee boxes where they can be hit with balls.

Mounting speakers higher up - this would be ideal, however it would change the sightlines along the fence not sure if our town will go for that, I guess I could also angle the speakers upward as well.

Mounting speakers together and "spraying" - I like this idea how would the coverage be compared with pointing the speakers straight and having them evenly spaced?

Rooms accross the street - haven't really put much thought into that, I figure the rooms are far enough away and the music would be at a low level. We also operate only during daylight hours, plus there is a semi busy street between the range and the hotels.

I've also attached a picture of the speakers along with specs.

[Hal Bissinger/COMSYSTEC]

That was my first thought also. I've used these http://www.atlassound.com/Product.aspx?id=1334&pI=1330 several times and they are virtually indistructable and sound probably better than those "entry level" (what is that?) speakers that you have been looking at.
 
I would have concerns with them mounted at 4 feet on those fence posts with vandalism.

Edit:
 

... so the speakers will be brought in each night... I'd stick a 1/4" connector on each speaker line, this would make it easy for staff to remove them and set them up.

That's insane and the connector is far from weatherproof.
 

-Hal

[Steve Toulch]

Hi Hal,

the ATS183GS looks great, only issue is they are $300 each. How many do you think I'd need based on the measurements in my drawing? I guess they're also pretty low profile so they could be left outside for the entire season without getting ripped off?

My budget for the whole project (besides the amp which we already have) is 3k. That includes speakers, wire, conduit, connectors and a zone mixer (probably go with a samson or behringer model). So I'm thinking 2k-$2300 for speakers. I'm not opposed to spending more per speaker, it all depends on how many we will need in total.

I don't need the speakers to be fully "weather proof" if It's pouring rain, the range will be closed anyway and they would be brought in. Or I can spend a little more and get some that are weatherproof.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/500854-REG/Atlas_Sound_SM42T_B_SM42T_B_Two_Way_Weather_Resistant.html

as far as vandalism goes, I'm not worried about it during daylight hours, after hours the speakers would be removed. Although this would be a pain in the ass everyday for staff.

That was my first thought also. I've used these http://www.atlassound.com/Product.aspx?id=1334&pI=1330 several times and they are virtually indistructable and sound probably better than those "entry level" (what is that?) speakers that you have been looking at.
 
I would have concerns with them mounted at 4 feet on those fence posts with vandalism.

Edit:
 
That's insane and the connector is far from weatherproof.
 

-Hal

[Hal Bissinger/COMSYSTEC]

the ATS183GS looks great, only issue is they are $300 each. How many do you think I'd need based on the measurements in my drawing? I guess they're also pretty low profile so they could be left outside for the entire season without getting ripped off?

I don't ever remember paying $300 for them but it has been a few years. They absolutely get left outside- year round and they are not easy to remove from their buried base. I first saw them used in an amusement park that is on the Long Island Sound. Not only were they use throughout the park where they are subject to kids standing on them, they were also installed along the water side of the boardwalk and out on the pier where they are exposed to salt water. That was probably six years ago and they are still working fine.
 
I would space them about every 30 feet along the fence line.
 
-Hal

[Lee Douglas]

Here is another version of what Hal suggested:

http://www.ticcorp.com/omni_speaker_gs3.htm

These can be found for under $100 each for the non transformer variety.  You will want to go with the 70V version to make installation easier, presuming your amplifier will allow you to utilize constant voltage.  Properly installed in the ground, they have a nice full sound the disperses 360 degrees.  They may also be installed to make them more vandal resistant as well and may be hidden among foliage or placed in planters to make them more difficuly to spot.  Although I will always recommend running in conduit, many jurisdictions will allow you to use direct burial cable, which will cut costs and expedite the installation with minimal impact on the landscaping.  Check your local laws and always call before digging!

Added:  Here is the external 70V transformer, which also makes a good junction point as well:

http://www.ticcorp.com/outdoor_speakers_70v.htm#sp70vta

[Brad Weber]

weather resistant. The speakers I'm looking at are weather resistant. We're also worried about theft, so the speakers will be brought in each night (they're pretty small and easy to move) or we will build some boxes to house them. I'd stick a 1/4" connector on each speaker line, this would make it easy for staff to remove them and set them up.

'Weather resistant' typically means they are intended to be located outdoors but under an overhang or similar rather than directly exposed.  The description of the C110 and aspects such as a port but no weep hole, a simple perforated metal grille, no special LF cone treatment, etc. supports that it may not be intended for direct exposure.
 
I also agree that deinstalling and reinstalling the speakers every day is likely to become an operations and maintenance nightmare.
 
Also, assuming you mean the Yamaha XM6150 (http://www.yamaha.com/yamahavgn/Documents/ProAudio/xmseries.pdf and http://www.yamaha.com/yamahavgn/Documents/ProAudio/xmseries_1.pdf) that is a six channel anplifier that uses channel pairs for 70V operation and can provide three 150W (and probably a bit less for full range operation) 70V outputs.

Rooms accross the street - haven't really put much thought into that, I figure the rooms are far enough away and the music would be at a low level. We also operate only during daylight hours, plus there is a semi busy street between the range and the hotels.

So the intent is to have low level, background music from speakers that in the pictures appear to be fairly close to a semi-busy street?  And to play pop music from speakers stuck on fence posts in a setting that appears to highlight the natural environment?  You know the situation and your clientele much better, but is it worth rethinking the entire concept or at least if it is worth a greater investment to better visually integrate the speakers?

[Steve Toulch]

I thought about it more last night, I'm leaning to the in ground speakers that Hal suggested. I'd rather have something I don't need to worry about and will be reliable. The garden speakers will also blend in visually.

As for the amplifier, thanks for pointing out the 150w per channel bridged 70v output. I'll run 4 channels (2x bridged lines) down the line for the speakers, this will still leave me with 2 channels for the patio and the pro-shop.

So the intent is to have low level, background music from speakers that in the pictures appear to be fairly close to a semi-busy street?  And to play pop music from speakers stuck on fence posts in a setting that appears to highlight the natural environment?  You know the situation and your clientele much better, but is it worth rethinking the entire concept or at least if it is worth a greater investment to better visually integrate the speakers?

I agree, between adding and removing speakers, visual impact, weather, etc. the in ground will be more suitable and less hassle.

thanks for all the feedback everyone.

'Weather resistant' typically means they are intended to be located outdoors but under an overhang or similar rather than directly exposed.  The description of the C110 and aspects such as a port but no weep hole, a simple perforated metal grille, no special LF cone treatment, etc. supports that it may not be intended for direct exposure.
 
I also agree that deinstalling and reinstalling the speakers every day is likely to become an operations and maintenance nightmare.
 
Also, assuming you mean the Yamaha XM6150 (http://www.yamaha.com/yamahavgn/Documents/ProAudio/xmseries.pdf and http://www.yamaha.com/yamahavgn/Documents/ProAudio/xmseries_1.pdf) that is a six channel anplifier that uses channel pairs for 70V operation and can provide three 150W (and probably a bit less for full range operation) 70V outputs.
So the intent is to have low level, background music from speakers that in the pictures appear to be fairly close to a semi-busy street?  And to play pop music from speakers stuck on fence posts in a setting that appears to highlight the natural environment?  You know the situation and your clientele much better, but is it worth rethinking the entire concept or at least if it is worth a greater investment to better visually integrate the speakers?

[Steve Toulch]

Here is another version of what Hal suggested:

http://www.ticcorp.com/omni_speaker_gs3.htm

These can be found for under $100 each for the non transformer variety.  You will want to go with the 70V version to make installation easier, presuming your amplifier will allow you to utilize constant voltage.  Properly installed in the ground, they have a nice full sound the disperses 360 degrees.  They may also be installed to make them more vandal resistant as well and may be hidden among foliage or placed in planters to make them more difficuly to spot.  Although I will always recommend running in conduit, many jurisdictions will allow you to use direct burial cable, which will cut costs and expedite the installation with minimal impact on the landscaping.  Check your local laws and always call before digging!

Added:  Here is the external 70V transformer, which also makes a good junction point as well:

http://www.ticcorp.com/outdoor_speakers_70v.htm#sp70vta

Thanks for the recommendation, I'd rather spend a little more and get something with a built in transformer. I'll shop around and try and get the ones Hal suggested at a better price.

[Lee Douglas]

Thanks for the recommendation, I'd rather spend a little more and get something with a built in transformer. I'll shop around and try and get the ones Hal suggested at a better price.

Also available with a built in multi-tap transformer.  Check the site.  Nothing wrong with the Atlas.  I sell a lot of it as well.

[Steve Toulch]

Also available with a built in multi-tap transformer.  Check the site.  Nothing wrong with the Atlas.  I sell a lot of it as well.

could you post a link to the model with the built in transformer please?

[Lee Douglas]

could you post a link to the model with the built in transformer please?

Same link as the external Xformer, just right above it.  It's an add on piece as well, just designed to be located with in the enclosure.