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Author Topic: Large format analog boards  (Read 13629 times)

Jay Barracato

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Re: Large format analog boards
« Reply #40 on: May 18, 2012, 08:48:43 pm »

I'm with you guys...(joke from "Oh Brother").

Actually I am a hardcore analog guy who effectively learned to live with and then like digital.

Unfortunately that means due to my karma I am probably going to be provided 3 band eq tackies for my next ten shows.
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kristianjohnsen

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Re: Large format analog boards
« Reply #41 on: May 18, 2012, 10:13:23 pm »

The main benefit of a digital console for me is that I don't have to spend 45 minutes hauling the fucking behemoth around the building to get the thing inside and that I don't need eight guys to help lift the god damn thing onto the four road cases that it sits on.

Those "new" console tilters are great... ::)

I can tilt and uncase my Yamaha DM 2000 by myself if I have to.

All I need is one helper to tilt and uncase my Yamaha PM1D.



Since the OP posted this in the lounge, he clearly doesn't understand the benefits of a digital console either, nor does he have the experience or knowledge to know better than to post a question like this. If he did, he would have known what companies are still producing analog consoles anyway.

Perhaps he currently works in a way that doesn't benefit from what a digital mixer has to offer.  Perhaps we can help him better understand the difference, this being the lounge and all? :)
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kristianjohnsen

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Re: Large format analog boards
« Reply #42 on: May 18, 2012, 10:33:54 pm »

I was just wondering, do nay manufactures still make large analog boards like 40ch+ or have they all gone digital.
I now see a lot of digital boards being made and only small analog boards like 16ch or 24ch being made, and now the only the large analog boards are avabile second hand.

I still prefer analog over digital compared to other people only because it's what I've learnt on, it's easier to use and I prefer to see everything at once in live sound.

Lachlan.

A high channel-count analog mixer is usually accompanied by a lot of outboard gear for more advanced mixing, making the complete package very big and heavy.  If all you need is many channels to just sum into a mix, fine, a high analog-board with little outboard will work.

However, it has been my experience that once the gigs start to grow in channel-count, the demand for more "advanced mixing" has increased also. 

Some of the things that are very easy to do on a digital console with what's built in:

Using many channel strip compressors or gates at the same time.
Setting drastic/very precise channel strip EQ.
Changing pre/post settings for just about everything along the channel strip.

Lining up stereo channels (or bigger groups of channels) to exactly track eachother in regards to every setting, including dynamics and EQ.

Using "copy/paste" like on a computer to quickly get many channels to the same settings.

Putting EQ, filters and compressors on subgroups.

Setting up outputs with different delay times to compensate for room placement of the speakers.

Running soundcheck for several completely different bands that will play at the same event and just hitting "scene recall" during the changeover break to entirely line up the desk for the next band, including the channel names over each fader (pretty slick, just make sure the right mic gets to the right amp, etc) :).

Storing just small sections of what's inside the desk in different libraries so that you easily can recall small details that will change many times in one concert (like the channel strip settings for one vocal mic being used by two singers).

Having many reverb units, one for each lead singer, for instance.

When you additionally get remote preamps and a digital snake for a digital desk, then it gets even better as you can get rid of all that heavy multicore cable.

I think that if you venture into the digital realm, once you "break the barrier" and get a "feel" for the desk (which initially is the challenging part), you will quickly discover that it gives you access to many features and mixing techniques that you previously didn't have the tools for. 
You can try out a bunch of stuff for free if you already own the desk, but there is no way you would ever buy 7 extra reverb units just to try something new on your analog setup, for instance.

First time I got a digital mixer I used it in anger after 4 days of experimenting and reading the manual.  When I bought my first "big" digital console I had it sitting on a table for 2 weeks waiting for the case to arrive and when I first took it to a gig I felt perfectly at home on it.

By now, I'm absolutely certain that "going digital" has made me a better mixerperson!  But I still have analog setups for hiring out, I just don't use them myself anymore.
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TJ (Tom) Cornish

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Re: Large format analog boards
« Reply #43 on: May 18, 2012, 11:28:09 pm »

Yes Thomas, I put you at a level above most, and yes, you are on that list.
 
Thank you - I appreciate the compliment.

I said let's start with a cost or price so here it is. One APB Pro house, $3000, rounded up.
 
I don't think I need to say how much time I spent searching the universe for the right fit for my applications, and I'm pretty sure this group knows how anal I am concerning tone and sound overall. Ask Rob Spence, he's heard the system.
 
So now that we've established a break point please give some thought to what tour quality digital boards can be purchased NEW for that amount. ....................... Done thinking??  ;)
 
Let's double or even triple the figure which will bring you to a point where you can start to enter the world of digital quality. I was willing to spend up to 4x what I spent on the APB, and I didn't even care about the ROI, but the truth of the matter is I didn't need need to spend 12-20K on a QUALITY digital board to get the job done.
 
So once again it comes down the end users needs. Back under the 3K figure ask yourself how many people buying a used 01V, Presonus, etc, boards of that quality, really need or will use the features of the board. 50% ?? Maybe. Is it fun to play with all the bells and whistles?? You bet your ass it is. Is it disappointing to read of the problems people have with digital boards at this level? Yes it is.

 ...

So TJ, my goal here is not to re-convert the world. My mama didn't raise a dummy, and I truely believe digital can be, and is, a blessing, but for those who need the real features of QUALITY digital boards, you being one of those people.
And for those keeping count the APB Pro House sounds better IMO than an LS9, Verona or Venice, as good, maybe better than a Soundcraft SI, and far better than any Mixwiz, 1640, Presonus, 01V, and 02V. And if I were to pull the trigger on or had the need for a digital board it would be a Midas Pro, SI, Yamaha or Avid board, and last I checked they cost a little more than 3K. However if I needed all the functionality I would be more than willing to spend the money.
Bob - I don't disagree with you. 

My only feedback is that since the thread started talking about "large format analog mixers", I'm not sure it's fair to compare the price of an admittedly very nice 16 channel board with a 48 channel digital.  I don't know what the price of an equivalent 48 channel APB is, but it's surely significantly more than $3000.  Add in a couple thousand for some decent BSS outboard gear and $1500 (or more than that) for a snake and suddenly digital mixers aren't 3X the cost of analog.

I do agree with you that low end digital boards are disappointing.  The 01v96 was an incredible value 9 years ago.  The fact that it's still a viable product shows either how far ahead it was 9 years ago and/or how stuck we've been for a long time. Now that the SiCompact is a little less ridiculously priced, there's at least one more option on the lower end of the range.
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Justice C. Bigler

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Re: Large format analog boards
« Reply #44 on: May 19, 2012, 10:01:58 am »

Those "new" console tilters are great... ::)

I have yet to see a console tilter that will support an 800lbs 60 frame Cadac J-Type. And console tilters don't help you get the nine foot long road case inside the building.
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Large format analog boards
« Reply #45 on: May 19, 2012, 10:14:21 am »

I have yet to see a console tilter that will support an 800lbs 60 frame Cadac J-Type. And console tilters don't help you get the nine foot long road case inside the building.

Don't forget the weight of the case as well.  Total is probably around 1200#
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Mac Kerr

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Re: Large format analog boards
« Reply #46 on: May 19, 2012, 11:04:43 am »

Those "new" console tilters are great... ::)

I can tilt and uncase my Yamaha DM 2000 by myself if I have to.

All I need is one helper to tilt and uncase my Yamaha PM1D.

How's that work for ya when you have to put the console on a 2m deep riser that is .5m high? The tilt stand also pretty much requires that you stand up to mix. I am not a fan. I do like a tilt stand to get the console up to a good height to lift it onto the real stand though.

Mac
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brian maddox

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Re: Large format analog boards
« Reply #47 on: May 19, 2012, 03:59:11 pm »

How's that work for ya when you have to put the console on a 2m deep riser that is .5m high? The tilt stand also pretty much requires that you stand up to mix. I am not a fan. I do like a tilt stand to get the console up to a good height to lift it onto the real stand though.

Mac

agreed on all counts.  especially the standing up to mix part.  the EZ-tilt is too tall to sit, and too short to stand for me.  i'm 6'4".  and between my knees and my back, i'm a really big fan of sitting...

the other thing that sucks with the EZ-tilt is that you can get the console up with two guys, but if it's a really big desk, it's a heck of a thing to get the console lid off, over the forks next to the wheel board and on to the floor on it's wheels.  most big desks you need 4 guys for this task.  i had a PM4000M that required at least 4 big guys to lift the lid.  what a beast...
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kristianjohnsen

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Re: Large format analog boards
« Reply #48 on: May 19, 2012, 05:56:30 pm »

How's that work for ya when you have to put the console on a 2m deep riser that is .5m high? The tilt stand also pretty much requires that you stand up to mix. I am not a fan. I do like a tilt stand to get the console up to a good height to lift it onto the real stand though.

Mac

I have found that a console tilter is an excellent tool for tilting the console and that it's very doable for two people to take off the lid and then slide/lift the console with the case "tray" onto something else when needed.

We have used the same type of mobile ramp that is used for rolling big cases into vans when having to roll big consoles onto risers or stages.  Depending on the situation and riser height we have also just lifted one end of the case onto the riser at a time, then tilted and uncased it.  I have found this to be easier than getting the cosole flat "in the lift" and then wrestling it up onto cases, etc.

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kristianjohnsen

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Re: Large format analog boards
« Reply #49 on: May 19, 2012, 06:04:59 pm »

I have yet to see a console tilter that will support an 800lbs 60 frame Cadac J-Type. And console tilters don't help you get the nine foot long road case inside the building.

If I routinely encountered situations where I had to gather up 8 people just for wrestling consoles up onto cases I would make sure to have a tilter around for that task alone.  Everything else regarding those consoles would still be a PITA, but it seems silly not to have a  tilter at hand.

The tilters I have are rated for 800 LBS and 1200 LBS respectively.  The biggest type is made of steel and is relatively heavy compared to the smaller, aluminum type heavy, but has casters on it for moving it around.  With a super-wide console it might get "tippy" side-to-side if a lot of people leaned onto one side at one time, but rolling a case underneath either side would be a lot easier than lifting the console onto cases in the first place.
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ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Large format analog boards
« Reply #49 on: May 19, 2012, 06:04:59 pm »


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