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[Lee Rudisill]

Yes, I know both are bottom dwellers on quality, but the gigs I do are typically free and just for fun, so dropping big coin on a nice unit isn't an option at the time.  I'm currently running the Behringer VMX1000USB, and it's NOISY!  I've had my eye on the Numark C3USB, simply because the second USB would come in handy for a few reasons.  I'm just not sure on the quality of Numark gear.  I know the quality on Behringer, but curious if the bar gets lower I guess

I don't consider myself a professional in the least bit.  I just enjoy being around the audio realm and had a chance to get some entry-level stuff paid for so I jumped on it.  Pretty much the only things I do with all of this is setup PA for small speeches, play some background music at small parties where a real DJ isn't needed/wanted...  And drag the setup out on the lake on the pontoon boat. 

Any thoughts, flames, or suggestions?

[Charlie Zureki]

Yes, I know both are bottom dwellers on quality, but the gigs I do are typically free and just for fun, so dropping big coin on a nice unit isn't an option at the time.  I'm currently running the Behringer VMX1000USB, and it's NOISY!  I've had my eye on the Numark C3USB, simply because the second USB would come in handy for a few reasons.  I'm just not sure on the quality of Numark gear.  I know the quality on Behringer, but curious if the bar gets lower I guess

I don't consider myself a professional in the least bit.  I just enjoy being around the audio realm and had a chance to get some entry-level stuff paid for so I jumped on it.  Pretty much the only things I do with all of this is setup PA for small speeches, play some background music at small parties where a real DJ isn't needed/wanted...  And drag the setup out on the lake on the pontoon boat. 

Any thoughts, flames, or suggestions?

  Hello,

    "Noisy" is a relative term... is it possible that you have "noisy" playback material ?  Or that your System's Gain structure is in need of some revision ?  Or, your cables are "junky". What is your amplifier/speaker setup ?  Makes and models ?

  Hammer   

[Lee Rudisill]

Speakers are Behringer B214D's.  Yes, they have their own noise-floor which is at a much lower level than some of the other actives I listened to (JBL & Mackie), but that's not where the noise is that's bugging me.  The material is good.  FLAC format, tested on better system (JBL through A&H mixer via 1/8" jack).  Cables are separate from power sources and LiveWire in brand.  Everything has been tested on with two different Furman line conditioners and a LiveWire conditioner as well.  Gain structure...  See below.

Anyway, on to where I'm getting my "noisyness" from...  When setting the gain at say, 1/4 way on the speakers (well, the amps on the speakers), and leaving all gains at zero on the mixer, if I inch up the master gain, noise is audible around 1/4 turn.  3/8 turn and it's to the annoying level, and half way it's getting to the point where it's very noticeable during quiet music and/or speech (theoretically speaking if any of the other inputs were in use).  Does this sound correct?

With the gains set well below clip on my input, and 3/8 on the master, even with the line level set at max, it's only lighting up maybe the second bar on the master side.

I know it's all a relative thing, and for my uses it's acceptable (so far, only annoyed person by it has been me).  But I'm just curious if the Numarks are around the same level, better, or worse.  Even if they're the same level, having the second USB would be a worthwhile switch for me.

[Brad Weber]

Speakers are Behringer B214D's.

I can't find a Behringer B214D model, there is the B412DSP and the B212D or B215D, I am assuming you meant the B215D.  In that case, the XLR input on the speaker accepts a maximum +22dBu, balanced input with the level control being adjustable from -infinity to +30dB.  The Main Out A/1 on your mixer is balanced audio on an XLR with a maximum +25dBu level, Main Out B/2 is unbalanced RCA with a maximum +21dBu level, so you should be using the Main Out A/1 and running a reasonable output level on the mixer.
 

Anyway, on to where I'm getting my "noisyness" from...  When setting the gain at say, 1/4 way on the speakers (well, the amps on the speakers), and leaving all gains at zero on the mixer, if I inch up the master gain, noise is audible around 1/4 turn.  3/8 turn and it's to the annoying level, and half way it's getting to the point where it's very noticeable during quiet music and/or speech (theoretically speaking if any of the other inputs were in use).  Does this sound correct?

The 'music' inputs on your mixer have three places to adjust the level, there is a Gain knob at the top of each channel, a channel fader (there appears to be no defined "0" or nominal point on the faders, they are simply labeled 1-10) and finally the Main Out level control knob.  The EQ can also affect the level so it may be best to bypass the EQ and also not use the 'XPQ' effect during troubleshooting.  So are you saying that when the channel Gain and fader controls are at their minimum then you get audible noise with the master mixer volume turned halfway up?

With the gains set well below clip on my input, and 3/8 on the master, even with the line level set at max, it's only lighting up maybe the second bar on the master side.

Along with the 10 segement output meters on the mixer there is a four segment level meter for each channel (-30/-20/0/+7).  What level are you seeing on that meter for the relevant channel?
 
My guess is that you may have the input level too low.  Try adjusting the channel Gain knob so that you are just below clipping or any audible distortion, then raising the channel fader until the signal regularly lights the 0 LED on the channel level meter without also regulalry lighting the +7 LED.  After that, adjust the master level knob to get a reasonable level.  Finally, after you have done that for the mixer, adjust the speaker input level to get the desired level without clipping or distortion.

[Paul G. OBrien]

Anyway, on to where I'm getting my "noisyness" from...  When setting the gain at say, 1/4 way on the speakers (well, the amps on the speakers), and leaving all gains at zero on the mixer, if I inch up the master gain, noise is audible around 1/4 turn.  3/8 turn and it's to the annoying level, and half way it's getting to the point where it's very noticeable during quiet music and/or speech (theoretically speaking if any of the other inputs were in use).  Does this sound correct?

When it comes to setting gain levels the control positions themselves are irrelevent it's the signal level at each stage you need to concern yourself with, and what you want is the highest signal level on the meter that doesn't introduce any distortion starting right at the source and then continuing on to the mixer input trim, the channel level control, the master output, and then the speaker/amplifier controls. Once you have everything seup" hot" like this you will find the speaker/amp controls can only be turned up to perhaps half way(unity) at most before the clipping or limit lights start to flash and this should produce the best signal to noise ratio. Overall volume can then be controlled with the master fader which will live somewhere below whatever it's maximum setting was in the initial stage of this setup for everything but maximum volume operation.

Now all that said there are no really quiet Dj mixers... compared to a pro mixing console anyway, about 85-90db sig-noise ratio seems to be the ceiling for most and some of the cheaper brands start producing audible distortion even before the levels get into the red. High levels of idle noise(hiss) seem to be a bit of Behringer trademark though and you have two of their components in the signal chain so you stand to improve that some with a switch to a different brand mixer. I have no personal experience with the mixer in question but Numark is one of the better DJ brands and I know others that are happy with their products so I don't see this as a step down at least.

[Lee Rudisill]

Wow...  Good deal of useful information!  Thanks, guys!

Brad - I had fat fingers and didn't notice when I proofed my previous post.  Yes, the speakers are B215D's, not 214.  I'm using Main Out A/1.  And yes, I'm getting a considerable amount of audible noise when everything on the mixer is set at zero, and I'm only turning up the master gain.

Paul - Thanks for the input.  I'm working towards getting the Behringer stuff out of the mix altogether...  If the Numark is a side-step on quality even, I think it will make my life easier.

Main reason for wanting the Numark mixer is the second USB.  Twofold reason why:  1.)  I often have two laptops which I could use as music sources, and then actually be able to PFL from them, and 2.)  it would be nice to have a rough copy of some of the speeches it's used for, as well as the national anthem...  I would have better recording capabilities there.

Once again, thanks for the input on gain-setting!  I feel a bit better now, since for the most part, this is how I've been going about setting my levels.

I would be curious however if anyone out there has any first-hand experience with this Numark mixer.

Edit:  Finally found some "Devil's Advocate" reviews:  http://www.musiciansfriend.com/pro-audio/numark-c3usb-dj-mixer-with-usb?content=reviews  Most of the reviews I've found on this have been the typical, "Is the most bestest mickser evar!" type reviews.  From the sound of the reviews here, I may have a different noise if I go this route...  Oh joy!  I just checked, and my local Guitar Center has both of these mixers...  I will see if they can hook both of these up so I can hear them side-by-side for a noise comparison.

[Lee Rudisill]

Lucked out at Guitar Center last night and spoke with a guy (customer) who had experience with both units.  Said the Numark had a slightly better noise floor, but not by much.  Also said that in his experience the second USB was picky when connecting a second computer.  But said when it was working properly, it was a great functional improvement.  He has the Numark as a backup rig, and keeps it in a similar rack to mine (SKB 8U slant + 4U bottom).  Only uses it for small no/low money venues like what I always find myself doing.

His only other suggestion was to invest in a used non-USB mixer of good quality, build my case to whatever specs I want, and include however many USB DAC's I want.  Sure, this option would cost more, but in the end, it's probably more where I want to be at anyway.  Being that I have a cabinet shop in my yard, I'm fairly certain I could make a mixer case to my own specs, and nobody would ever know the mixer isn't USB. 

Thoughts on the second route?  Anyone want to donate a nice mixer to the cause? 

[Ned Ward]

If you're using it just to play music, have a mic attached, and don't need to fade between sources, I'd get a regular mixer that's not a DJ mixer.

I have an original 01v for our band in a rack; for smaller events where it's just 1 mic and an iPod, I bought a Mackie 402 - 2 mic pre's and 1 stereo channel in a compact space. Very low noisefloor and easy to use.

Peavey makes a USB-balanced IO converter to use USB audio if you're using a computer, or (less recommended) you could use a DI between a laptop and the mixer.

[Lee Rudisill]

Two (probably dumb) questions...

1.)  DI = Direct Interface, correct?  As in 1/8" headphone jack to balanced TRS/XLR?

I know of several other DAC's (USB > Line) out there used in the auto-audio-PC world, but I'm not sure I've heard of any besides the Peavey that goes to balanced...  Probably a new topic. 

2.)  Even when I've had 2 computers hooked into the mixer, I rarely actually fade between sources.  On a normal, non-DJ mixer, I should be able to fade in one source and fade out the other source simply by using each each line's fader, versus using the A-B source fader, correct?  Should give the same soft/gentle fade, but require two hands.  I'm fine with this option.

[Ned Ward]

Two (probably dumb) questions...

1.)  DI = Direct Interface, correct?  As in 1/8" headphone jack to balanced TRS/XLR?

correct. Radial make several, and while you can buy one that's an AV Model, you can also just use adapters to go from 1/8" stereo to 2x1/4" mono. Makes your DI a multitasker for when you need it on keyboards, etc. vs. buying a dedicated AV direct box. Wise wisdom I once received on these boards...

I know of several other DAC's (USB > Line) out there used in the auto-audio-PC world, but I'm not sure I've heard of any besides the Peavey that goes to balanced...  Probably a new topic. 

if you search the forums, there's a great long thread on this exact subject as well as other USB-audio sources that won't break the bank. You can find one here - http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,1735.0.html

2.)  Even when I've had 2 computers hooked into the mixer, I rarely actually fade between sources.  On a normal, non-DJ mixer, I should be able to fade in one source and fade out the other source simply by using each each line's fader, versus using the A-B source fader, correct?  Should give the same soft/gentle fade, but require two hands.  I'm fine with this option.

Yep - very easy to do with 2 hands. The Mackie has knobs for volume given its size and price point, but I've done it fine on that as well as my earlier 1202.

[ProSoundWeb Community]