ProSoundWeb Community

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Pages: 1 [2]  All   Go Down

Author Topic: Recommendation for a compact installed line array  (Read 13398 times)

David Shriver

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 77
    • Rockport Music
Re: Recommendation for a compact installed line array
« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2012, 08:58:49 AM »

Hello Brad,

The loud speaker/amp side of this project is budgeted at 20-30k.  Anything else (install, mixers, mics, plates, cables, racks, etc) does not get included in that number.

My ceiling height is 12'.  The wall curves to the walls which give me a 10' column height where the speakers need to be located.

There are two areas to this room.  Please excuse the poor ASCII drawing.  The top wide area we refer to as the Sun Room while the other area is the Reception Hall.  The main performing area is at the top of the Sun Room but if I only do a speaker install there it has to be painfully loud to provide coverage to the other end of the reception hall.  That is why the plan is for a 2nd set of speakers at the opening to the reception hall.  I'll convert my CAD RCP into something I can upload here so you can see a more accurate plan of the space.

-d

Does that include install labor?  Is that price dealer or retail?  I assume that does not include any mixers-mics-wall plates-cables- racks or other audio gear?

You also mentioned a 10' height limit.  Is that the ceiling height?  or the limit of the columns that might be mounted 6-7' off the floor for a total height of 17'?

DETAILS are very important-or you will end up with a lot more questions.

Your speaker layout looks to be a bit odd-especially for the type of loudspeakers you have selected.  What is the design thought behind it?
Logged

Ivan Beaver

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9534
  • Atlanta GA
Re: Recommendation for a compact installed line array
« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2012, 11:48:47 AM »

The main performing area is at the top of the Sun Room but if I only do a speaker install there it has to be painfully loud to provide coverage to the other end of the reception hall.  That is why the plan is for a 2nd set of speakers at the opening to the reception hall.
If you used something like the Intellivox-you could provide the same level from front to back.  I have done it quite a few times in rooms up to 100' deep or more.  +/-2-3dB.  So it doesn't have to be "painfully loud" in area vs another-but proper design has to be done. The bass is a little bit louder up front-but not a huge amount so as to be noticed.

The problem with the Intellivox is that you don't have enough ceiling height.  Proper mounting height IS ESSENTIAL! for this type of loudspeaker.

I just wanted to clear up the misconception that the front of the room has to be louder than the rear-which many people think HAS to happen.
Logged
A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

PHYSICS- NOT FADS!

David Shriver

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 77
    • Rockport Music
Re: Recommendation for a compact installed line array
« Reply #12 on: April 03, 2012, 01:23:26 PM »

Oh you are absolutely right Ivan.  With the right room dimensions a LA can have nice even coverage over the distance I need (about 80').  I just lack the height to fly a system that will accomplish that.  Delays seem like best solution with the space constraints I have.

-d

If you used something like the Intellivox-you could provide the same level from front to back.  I have done it quite a few times in rooms up to 100' deep or more.  +/-2-3dB.  So it doesn't have to be "painfully loud" in area vs another-but proper design has to be done. The bass is a little bit louder up front-but not a huge amount so as to be noticed.

The problem with the Intellivox is that you don't have enough ceiling height.  Proper mounting height IS ESSENTIAL! for this type of loudspeaker.

I just wanted to clear up the misconception that the front of the room has to be louder than the rear-which many people think HAS to happen.
Logged

Lee Buckalew

  • Classic LAB
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1384
  • St. Louis, MO area
    • Pro Sound Advice, Inc.
Re: Recommendation for a compact installed line array
« Reply #13 on: April 03, 2012, 06:41:13 PM »

Sure Ivan,

Let me give you some more info.

The space is a the reception hall in our Performing Arts Center.  It is a multi use room that gets used for everything from corporate meetings, wedding receptions, cabaret dinner performances, parties, dinners, etc, etc.  The largest audience is about 250 for a standing cocktail reception.  The most demanding audio situation is when we setup tables for about 100 people to do a cabaret style performance.  In this setting we are amplifying a singer, piano, bass, and sometimes a guitar.  The other real challenging scenerio is a wedding DJ.  Currently we are covering both of these setups with 4 QSC K12s on stands and a QSC K-Sub.


The room is roughly cross shape.  If you'll look at my (poor) diagram below the "x" are the planned locations for speakers.  Audio budget for this is probably in the 20k-30k range. 

     _____
___|x     x |____
|                   |
|                   |
|___         ___|
    | x   x  |
    |        |
    |        |
    |        |
    |_____|

Another possibility would be the Omniline cabinet system.  Single amp channel per array, exceptional good sound quality.
 
http://www.omniline-ma.com/

It may be possible for your use that subs would not be required but that you could instead utilize perceptual encoding in the tuning processor that would allow you to pass the harmonics only of the bass content.  This can create the feeling that the lower fundamentals are present when you are actually hearing the harmonics only.  This can really help to clean up a muddy reverberant space.  It will not replace a chest thumping bass output.

Lee
Logged
Lee Buckalew
Pro Sound Advice, Inc.

Brad Weber

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2208
  • Marietta, GA
Re: Recommendation for a compact installed line array
« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2012, 08:46:36 AM »

While I do have the original design documents none of it was implimented.  There are no cable runs, conduit, or other infrastructure in place.  So pulling AES cable (or cat5) and power or speaker cable doesn't really matter.  Its largely a blank slate.  I have room in my amp room to accommodate amps and DSP or that could be combined into the loud speaker.
The loud speaker/amp side of this project is budgeted at 20-30k.  Anything else (install, mixers, mics, plates, cables, racks, etc) does not get included in that number.
While not being constrained by existing infrastructure may allow greater flexibility, because you are dealing with existing, nicely finished, highly public spaces then adding the associated boxes, conduit and power to support the system can be a rather expensive and complex task.  Conduit itself may be relatively inexpensive but ripping open and patching walls and ceiling to run it greatly increases the direct cost and also requires time, which in a space like this may represent an indirect cost.  So whether the related infrastructure has to be included in the $20k to $30k budget or not, the associated infrastructure may be a factor to consider.

Also related to the infrastructure and the speaker system cost, you might want to think about whether you really need stereo and whether you really need to have the house system support a DJ.  Four beam steering arrays and getting the required power to their locations could use all of your budget or even more.  If you need to also cover the related installation, testing and tuning of the system with that budget then that may not be feasible.  And if you have to add in the cost associated with subwoofers and the related processing for DJ applications and that leaves even less for the arrays.  So if you can't cut back to two arrays and possibly delete the DJ application, then beam steering arrays such as the Tannoy QFlex, Meyer Sound CAL, Renkus-Heinx iC-R and Duran Audio Axys Intellivox may not be an option.  And that may be exactly why the Contractors you had in suggested less expensive options.
Logged

Mike Pyle

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1217
  • Santa Rosa, CA
Re: Recommendation for a compact installed line array
« Reply #15 on: April 04, 2012, 01:14:22 PM »

You might look into the RCF VSA-2050. I haven't used this install model myself but do use their TTL11A portable system among other RCF products.

http://www.rcf.it/en_US/installed-sound-systems/vsa/vsa-2050
Logged
Mike Pyle  Audiopyle Sound  707-315-6204
Dealer For: JBL, Soundcraft, Crown, dbx, AKG, Yorkville, EV, QSC, RCF, FBT, Danley Sound Labs, Meyer Sound, Fulcrum Acoustic, Tannoy, Lab Gruppen, Powersoft, Linea Research, EAW, Allen & Heath, Ashly, APB, Audix, One Systems, Presonus, K&M, Ultimate, Global Truss, Intellistage, SKB, Gator, Radial Engineering, Turbosound, Midas, dB Technologies, American DJ, Odyssey, ProCo, Rapco, CBI, Elation, Mipro, Chauvet, Blizzard, Shure, Whirlwind, Bassboss, Yamaha, Line 6, Behringer, On-Stage, more...

Jim Hodges

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4
Re: Recommendation for a compact installed line array
« Reply #16 on: April 12, 2012, 05:43:08 PM »

You haven't mentioned them but the Emma and Elijah systems from A-Line Acoustics fit into your requirements and budget quite nicely.

Jim

http://www.a-lineacoustics.com
Logged

Brad Weber

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2208
  • Marietta, GA
Re: Recommendation for a compact installed line array
« Reply #17 on: April 13, 2012, 06:46:23 AM »

You haven't mentioned them but the Emma and Elijah systems from A-Line Acoustics fit into your requirements and budget quite nicely.

Jim

http://www.a-lineacoustics.com
I say this in the hopes it changes, but the product data offered on the A-Line Acoustics web site seems to prohibit knowing if their products fit the requirements or not.  Information such as accurate frequency response information, polars, input levels, EASE or clf files, etc. are absent and it is pretty clear that the specifications offered are not based on any standard procedures or test conditions.  For example, the maximum SPL measurements seem to be made using pink noise rather than any of the standard shaped and clipped pink noise sources while they also don't identify if the frequency response, sensitivity and output are whole space or half space.  And most noticeable is that at least some of the measurements were apparently preformed in a 24'x36'x14' room of unknown acoustics, which makes specifications such as the maximum output and frequency response sort of pointless since they represent the combination of speaker and room.

However, perhaps most applicable here, the information presented for Emma, Eli and Elijah all address being line arrays and having vertical pattern control don't seem to address the actual patterns.  No EASE or clf data, no software, no polars or dispersion chart, not even a nominal vertical pattern value.  When the main advantage of the array is the vertical pattern control, not providing any related information is a rather obvious, and baffling, absence.

The A-Line products may be great but the specifications and information offered are of rather limited value for system design or comparison purposes.  And that is difficult to understand since there are companies who provide standardized testing services for many speaker manufacturers and thus they could readily obtain such information.

You also may not have been aware, but a bit over a month ago A-Line Acoustics was acquired by Atlas Sound and supposedly beginning in July the A-Line products will be sold through Atlas dealers.  Hopefully some of these issues will be resolved as part of that transition.
Logged

ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Recommendation for a compact installed line array
« Reply #17 on: April 13, 2012, 06:46:23 AM »


Pages: 1 [2]  All   Go Up
 



Site Hosted By Ashdown Technologies, Inc.

Page created in 0.042 seconds with 25 queries.