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Author Topic: Recommendation for a compact installed line array  (Read 9419 times)

David Shriver

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Recommendation for a compact installed line array
« on: April 02, 2012, 11:36:55 am »

Hello everyone,

I am working on an AV install in our reception hall.  I'm thinking of using the new Meyer Sound CAL units but I'm wondering if anyone has other recommendations.  I've looked at the JBL CBT series, Tannoy QFlex, and the Innovox Line Arrays as well.  I haven't used any of these products myself though so I'm hoping someone will have a recommendation for me.  Thanks!

-d

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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Recommendation for a compact installed line array
« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2012, 11:56:20 am »

Hello everyone,

I am working on an AV install in our reception hall.  I'm thinking of using the new Meyer Sound CAL units but I'm wondering if anyone has other recommendations.  I've looked at the JBL CBT series, Tannoy QFlex, and the Innovox Line Arrays as well.  I haven't used any of these products myself though so I'm hoping someone will have a recommendation for me.  Thanks!

-d
It would first help to give a better description of exactly what you are trying to "accomplish" with the system-AND some specifics about the room.

With what was given-suggestions could be all over the map-and none of them apply to specifically what you want to do and the room you have to work with.

Next-when you say "copmpact" line array-I would assume you are talking about a small horizontal size.  The vertical size requirement of the array does not change.  If it needs to be 10' tall to have "line array behavor" to the distance you have (yours may be longer or shorter-we have no idea)-then you will need a lot more of the "compact" boxes to achieve it.

If you are going to try and use 3 "compact" boxes-then you no longer have a line array.  You have 3 small boxes stacked on top of each other.

With the models listed-you have a really wide price range.  It would also help quite a bit to know what sort of budget you have-FOR THE LOUDSPEAKER SYSTEM (amps and processing included in that price)-NOT the price for the whole install.

Much mroe infromation is needed.
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Brad Weber

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Re: Recommendation for a compact installed line array
« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2012, 12:07:34 pm »

Hello everyone,

I am working on an AV install in our reception hall.  I'm thinking of using the new Meyer Sound CAL units but I'm wondering if anyone has other recommendations.  I've looked at the JBL CBT series, Tannoy QFlex, and the Innovox Line Arrays as well.  I haven't used any of these products myself though so I'm hoping someone will have a recommendation for me.  Thanks!

-d
How did you arrive at these options?  Are you trying to put together a system design yourself to then be put out to bid or are the different solutions noted what mutliple Contractors or vendors recommended?

The primary reason I ask is that the Meyer CAL and the Tannoy QFlex are powered, beam steerable arrays while the JBL CBT are unpowered boxes with fixed, but selectable, coverage arrays and Innovox offers both powered and unpowered models, but apparently all with fixed patterns.  So you've noted multiple different general product categories that also cover a very wide range of costs.  This suggests some lack of clarity regarding what is really wanted or appropriate for the application.
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David Shriver

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Re: Recommendation for a compact installed line array
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2012, 12:12:47 pm »

Sure Ivan,

Let me give you some more info.

The space is a the reception hall in our Performing Arts Center.  It is a multi use room that gets used for everything from corporate meetings, wedding receptions, cabaret dinner performances, parties, dinners, etc, etc.  The largest audience is about 250 for a standing cocktail reception.  The most demanding audio situation is when we setup tables for about 100 people to do a cabaret style performance.  In this setting we are amplifying a singer, piano, bass, and sometimes a guitar.  The other real challenging scenerio is a wedding DJ.  Currently we are covering both of these setups with 4 QSC K12s on stands and a QSC K-Sub.


The room is roughly cross shape.  If you'll look at my (poor) diagram below the "x" are the planned locations for speakers.  Audio budget for this is probably in the 20k-30k range. 

     _____
___|x     x |____
|                   |
|                   |
|___         ___|
    | x   x  |
    |        |
    |        |
    |        |
    |_____|

It would first help to give a better description of exactly what you are trying to "accomplish" with the system-AND some specifics about the room.

With what was given-suggestions could be all over the map-and none of them apply to specifically what you want to do and the room you have to work with.

Next-when you say "copmpact" line array-I would assume you are talking about a small horizontal size.  The vertical size requirement of the array does not change.  If it needs to be 10' tall to have "line array behavor" to the distance you have (yours may be longer or shorter-we have no idea)-then you will need a lot more of the "compact" boxes to achieve it.

If you are going to try and use 3 "compact" boxes-then you no longer have a line array.  You have 3 small boxes stacked on top of each other.

With the models listed-you have a really wide price range.  It would also help quite a bit to know what sort of budget you have-FOR THE LOUDSPEAKER SYSTEM (amps and processing included in that price)-NOT the price for the whole install.

Much mroe infromation is needed.
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David Shriver

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Re: Recommendation for a compact installed line array
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2012, 12:16:02 pm »

Hello Brad,

I've used Meyer for multiple installed systems before but I have no experience with the CAL.  It was my first thought when this project was proposed.  The Tannoy QFlex was specified by the original AV consultant during building construction.  The AV system we are installing was planned to be done during construction but was edited out for financial reasons.  The solutions from JBL and Innovox were suggested to me by outside contractors.

-d

How did you arrive at these options?  Are you trying to put together a system design yourself to then be put out to bid or are the different solutions noted what mutliple Contractors or vendors recommended?

The primary reason I ask is that the Meyer CAL and the Tannoy QFlex are powered, beam steerable arrays while the JBL CBT are unpowered boxes with fixed, but selectable, coverage arrays and Innovox offers both powered and unpowered models, but apparently all with fixed patterns.  So you've noted multiple different general product categories that also cover a very wide range of costs.  This suggests some lack of clarity regarding what is really wanted or appropriate for the application.
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David Shriver

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Re: Recommendation for a compact installed line array
« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2012, 12:25:38 pm »

A bit more info for everyone...

My maximum size for this installation is 9" wide, and 10' high.  Depth is very flexible.  The plan is to feed the amps via AES from my London BLU DSPs.  However, I'd consider doing it via AVB from my London BLU-805s that will be part of this install.

-d
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Brad Weber

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Re: Recommendation for a compact installed line array
« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2012, 01:53:19 pm »

I've used Meyer for multiple installed systems before but I have no experience with the CAL.  It was my first thought when this project was proposed.  The Tannoy QFlex was specified by the original AV consultant during building construction.  The AV system we are installing was planned to be done during construction but was edited out for financial reasons.  The solutions from JBL and Innovox were suggested to me by outside contractors.
It sounds like there could be some potential considerations related to the original design intent and related infrastructure provisions including the intended use of powered speakers, the intended use of beam steering and the intended use of AES audio.  If those aspects were part of the original design concept then any deviation may generate other related changes, so I would be wary of suggested deviations from the original design unless they address the full impact of the change.  For example, any of the JBL CBT products would likely be less expensive but would their pattern and the limitation to physical aiming work with the speaker locations and mounting requirements defined?  And how would the associated amplifiers and multiple speaker cable runs be addressed?

While you noted product series rather than specific products, any of the products in those series are likely going to have difficulty supporting higher output, full range applications such as some of those you noted.  Supplemental low frequency devices may be appropriate for some of those applications.

In terms of beam steering type arrays, the Renkus-Heinz Iconyx products, most likely the iC-R series, are a common alternative to the QFlex and CAL products.  The Duran Audio Axys Intellivox series is another similar option.
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David Shriver

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Re: Recommendation for a compact installed line array
« Reply #7 on: April 02, 2012, 04:03:38 pm »

Hello again Brad,

While I do have the original design documents none of it was implimented.  There are no cable runs, conduit, or other infrastructure in place.  So pulling AES cable (or cat5) and power or speaker cable doesn't really matter.  Its largely a blank slate.  I have room in my amp room to accommodate amps and DSP or that could be combined into the loud speaker. 

I agree with you that there will be an issue with LFE. My current thought is that I'll likely have to supplement any install with portable subwoofers.  There will be an AVP plate installed at the top of the cross so I'll be able to run lines to a sub.  Suggestions on a sub to compliment the line arrays would be most welcome.

-d



It sounds like there could be some potential considerations related to the original design intent and related infrastructure provisions including the intended use of powered speakers, the intended use of beam steering and the intended use of AES audio.  If those aspects were part of the original design concept then any deviation may generate other related changes, so I would be wary of suggested deviations from the original design unless they address the full impact of the change.  For example, any of the JBL CBT products would likely be less expensive but would their pattern and the limitation to physical aiming work with the speaker locations and mounting requirements defined?  And how would the associated amplifiers and multiple speaker cable runs be addressed?

While you noted product series rather than specific products, any of the products in those series are likely going to have difficulty supporting higher output, full range applications such as some of those you noted.  Supplemental low frequency devices may be appropriate for some of those applications.

In terms of beam steering type arrays, the Renkus-Heinz Iconyx products, most likely the iC-R series, are a common alternative to the QFlex and CAL products.  The Duran Audio Axys Intellivox series is another similar option.
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Tom Young

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Re: Recommendation for a compact installed line array
« Reply #8 on: April 02, 2012, 04:46:22 pm »

I think another point to make is that the electronically steerable column systems allow you more freedom in placement (height), as the beam they provide can be steered and shaped as needed.

But I would not rule out the CBT and specificaly the CBT70J/E system which has the distinct advantage of going much lower than just about any of the column systems. Response is 45Hz-20kHz. You would probably still need a subwoofer, but it does not need to go up as high. Brad mentioned, but I'll elaborate: this is a fairly inpexpensive passive system with a slightly downward tilt to the beam (so it can be mounted higher) and the choice of 2 vertical coverage patterns. This system sounds very good and gets quite loud. It fits the footprint you outlined.

If you go the digitlly steered route, I advise that the Iconyx from Renkus Heinz has been "out there" for a few years and they have the design and software fairly well developed. This system also goes down to normal subwoofer crossover frequencies and is designed to do music (as well as spoken word) fairly well.

The Meyer system is fairly new and doesn't go very low at all.  Plus it is designed for (limited to) spoken word. Not music.

The Intellivox system is also voice only.
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Recommendation for a compact installed line array
« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2012, 05:27:43 pm »

Audio budget for this is probably in the 20k-30k range. 

 
Does that include install labor?  Is that price dealer or retail?  I assume that does not include any mixers-mics-wall plates-cables- racks or other audio gear?

You also mentioned a 10' height limit.  Is that the ceiling height?  or the limit of the columns that might be mounted 6-7' off the floor for a total height of 17'?

DETAILS are very important-or you will end up with a lot more questions.

Your speaker layout looks to be a bit odd-especially for the type of loudspeakers you have selected.  What is the design thought behind it?
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