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Author Topic: Question for the rigging experts.  (Read 31794 times)

Tim McCulloch

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Re: Question for the rigging experts.
« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2012, 12:08:57 pm »

When you hear hoofsteps, think horses not zebras. THE LOAD INSN'T THAT GREAT. Engineers tend to go too far into "best way", and overthink/overprice what is really needed. I would seat my children under the method I described now & 25 years from now.

While I have used exactly the method you describe, I'm not willing to make a blanket statement on a public forum about its suitability for a specific project that I'm not able to personally inspect.
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"Practicing an art, no matter how well or badly, is a way to make your soul grow, for heaven's sake. Sing in the shower. Dance to the radio. Tell stories. Write a poem to a friend, even a lousy poem. Do it as well as you possible can. You will get an enormous reward. You will have created something."  - Kurt Vonnegut

Nick Enright

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Re: Question for the rigging experts.
« Reply #11 on: March 20, 2012, 12:54:05 pm »

Quote from: Jim McKeveny
When you hear hoofsteps, think horses not zebras. THE LOAD INSN'T THAT GREAT. Engineers tend to go too far into "best way", and overthink/overprice what is really needed. I would seat my children under the method I described now & 25 years from now.


While I have used exactly the method you describe, I'm not willing to make a blanket statement on a public forum about its suitability for a specific project that I'm not able to personally inspect.

Tim you are exactly right, and that's why engineers "tend to go too far into "best way", and overthink/overprice what is really needed."

As an engineer (the kind with degrees and stuff) there is an inherent responsibility to do things correctly, not because we're anal, or domineering, or megalomanics; but because we are trained to take into account all kinds of different variables that the rest of the population, no matter how smart, tend to disregard.

I'm not saying that we are the only ones who do this, but that we are "conditioned" to think a very specific way about things. Many of us also have a deep understanding of the responsibilities inherent in engineering.


Note: I am not a Structural Engineer, and while I've had plenty of education in stress and strain of static structures, I would never even offer an opinion in a public forum on this type of thing. Too many people don't understand the basics of loading, stress, strength, or stiffness. When you lack fundamental knowledge you disregard what might be critical details, this can very easily change a situation from safe to deadly very quickly.


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Nick Enright
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Jim McKeveny

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Re: Question for the rigging experts.
« Reply #12 on: March 20, 2012, 01:03:40 pm »

Please define "do things correctly" so that we may fairly consider your response. It is vague.
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Nick Enright

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Re: Question for the rigging experts.
« Reply #13 on: March 20, 2012, 01:17:55 pm »

Please define "do things correctly" so that we may fairly consider your response. It is vague.

Correctly means following: accepted practice, relevant codes, using calculated numbers, etc...

Many times in both my prior career, R&D Engineering/Failure Analysis/Prototype Design/Prototype Manufacture, and in my current; Live Sound/Grip-Electric/Live Production Mgmt. I have been confronted with the argument: "Well, it works right?" or "Do we really have to do all that just to simply get this result?"

My answer is that it might work, but not correctly, and yes, if you want this result, you have to do all that.

Unless you've been through the grinder that is an ABET engineering degree you don't really get what we've had to study, and the level of detail that we approach problems. To additionally get your Professional Engineer (licences, registration, certification) stamp is a massive undertaking, it requires very specific qualifications and effort to receive and is an assurance that the person signing off has the background, education, knowledge, and experience to make the specific determination.

Is that clearer?

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Nick Enright
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Robert "VOiD" Caprio

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Re: Question for the rigging experts.
« Reply #14 on: March 20, 2012, 01:45:27 pm »

Thanks for all the info guys.  The bottom line here is that it's obvious that there are a number of different ways to go about this.  I am certainly not a rigger but I'd like to know as much as I can about it.  So my motive in asking all you folks was so I could get as many opinions and ideas as possible, that way when I speak to the structural engineer I'll be able to better understand what he's saying and also to know that he's not taking any shortcuts, which i doubt he would.

I will post again once we've figured it all out and we've got speakers in the air.
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Jim McKeveny

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Re: Question for the rigging experts.
« Reply #15 on: March 20, 2012, 02:32:16 pm »

I, for one, am glad Jobs & Woz - among many others among many industries -  did not wait for the proper approval stamps.

You can buy heavier ceiling fans in Home Depot, and it does not take a paper trail to mount them even in a public space, nor is there a 60 Minutes expose about to unfurl regarding Emergency Department visits from same.

It is 2 friggin' VRX's. 56 lbs! Let's call in the Army Corp of Engineers!

This starts to sound very much like Mel Brooks' : "Gentlemen! We have to protect our phony-baloney jobs!"
« Last Edit: March 21, 2012, 07:10:16 am by Jim McKeveny »
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Charlie Zureki

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Re: Question for the rigging experts.
« Reply #16 on: March 20, 2012, 02:49:55 pm »

Thanks for all the info guys.  The bottom line here is that it's obvious that there are a number of different ways to go about this.  I am certainly not a rigger but I'd like to know as much as I can about it.  So my motive in asking all you folks was so I could get as many opinions and ideas as possible, that way when I speak to the structural engineer I'll be able to better understand what he's saying and also to know that he's not taking any shortcuts, which i doubt he would.

I will post again once we've figured it all out and we've got speakers in the air.

  Use Zip ties and gaff tape...no,no, no, I mean...duck tape & coat hanger-wire & elmer's glue ;D


  Hey Void,  You're going about this the right way... asking questions, forming a rigging plan/plans.

   Unfortuately, none of us could make a unequivical statement in regards to the what ifs, wheres, whens and hows...only, because there's some information that we'd need.... such as load rating of trusses, spans between trusses, gauge of metal/thickness of all structural components, and exact design coupling of the trusses to steel up rights or Concrete/ Block walls.

   I believe that the trusses could probably more than handle the load of the speakers, rigging hardware and cabling...but,  Tim is absolutely correct in having some Civil or Mechanical Engr. sign off on your placement/rigging of the speakers.

    You may rig the speakers properly...but, having something on paper (and photos) may protect you when someone decides to make some changes in the future.

   Hammer.... NO Duck/Duct tape allowed.
   
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James A. Griffin

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Re: Question for the rigging experts.
« Reply #17 on: March 20, 2012, 09:45:53 pm »

I, for one, am glad Jobs & Woz - among many others among many industries -  did not wait for the proper approval stamps.

Jobs & Woz weren't hanging 100+ pound loads above the heads of my kids... just sayin'....
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Jim McKeveny

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Re: Question for the rigging experts.
« Reply #18 on: March 21, 2012, 07:23:35 am »

Plenty of engineers "signed off" on the Tacoma-Makinac Bridge, or the Kansas City Hyatt footbridge, or Firestone Steel Radial 500, or the Ford Pinto gas tank, or the O-rings on the Challenger boosters...Are you catching my drift?

The load as described is so routine that special instructions are not required. That is code.

We do not administer general anesthetic for teeth cleaning, nor do we unnecessarily run up a customers' invoice with unnecessary, micro-possibility terror.
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Philip Roberts

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Re: Question for the rigging experts.
« Reply #19 on: March 21, 2012, 10:04:33 am »

Plenty of engineers "signed off" on the Tacoma-Makinac Bridge, or the Kansas City Hyatt footbridge, or Firestone Steel Radial 500, or the Ford Pinto gas tank, or the O-rings on the Challenger boosters...Are you catching my drift?

If you actually read your history you should know that no engineers ever signed off on the KC Hyatt foot bridge (the steel contractor just changed it w/o checking) and the O rings for the space shuttle (read up on Feynman's involvement in the Challenger commission and how NASA management speciflly over ruled Thikol (sp?) engineers objections to launching Challenger in the weather they did.)

I have no knowledge of the rest.

Philip
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ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Question for the rigging experts.
« Reply #19 on: March 21, 2012, 10:04:33 am »


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