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Author Topic: Had issues doing a sound gig. What is wrong ??  (Read 45865 times)

Kenny Deal

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Had issues doing a sound gig. What is wrong ??
« on: March 17, 2012, 02:28:25 pm »

Well in another post we got a new board. Allen and heath Mixwizard. we are not booked for awhile so I did sound for another band who's regular guy could not make it. I figured it would be a good experience to learn the board etc without the stress of playing as well. I had alot of trouble Eq'ing the room and mostly the Lead singer. Had soe other issues but was able to resolve those. Had a hum coming from my Alesis Midi verb so I had to use the on board effects which were not bad actually.
Guess the midiverb is toast. I tried balanced and un balanced cables. Still significant hum.
Bass Player had some kind of issue with his guitar picking up the neon lights but I just killed his channel during the few breaks in the songs and being a bassist myself recommened him getting a Rocktron Hush.  I used to have the same problem with teh active Bartolinis in my Tobias in some clubs. The gate got rid of the noise.
Now the drummer wanted a mic and was tucked into a little cubby hole in the corner. I figured I may have trouble with feedback so I gave him a JBL eon 10 on it's own aux mix hoping I could control it better but no luck. I was going to try putting it on a stand so I could get it away from the mic but he said just turn it off, he really didn't need it.
Now my main problem was the lead singer. She sounded very thin though the mix and I could not eq it. I mean I could by pushing up the low mids and lows a little but when I tried the thing feedback somewhere I think in the 3-450 range. Atleast I think that was what I cut to get it to stop but then she sounded really thin. I had no problem with the two other singers, just her. I am not sure what I was doing wrong. I started with the eq's flat. Then had them all pretty much the same and the two guys sounded really good but I could not get her o sound good unless I pushed her low mids up more. Also I had the gain up more on her channel as she sang with less power on some songs but then others she damn near clipped. Aside from being very attentive to the lead singer channle what else could I have been doing wrong ?
OK..Pertinent info:
Mixer-A&H 16:2 Mix wizard
FOH Eq Rane 31 band
Monitor Eq Ashly 15 band
FX-Built in Lexicon(I think) from the A&H
FOH speakers  Mackie 1521s on top and swa 1501s on the bottom.
Monitors for lead singer..2 Yamaha 15s wedges powered by Bridged Crown Powerbase 3
Monitors for two guitar singers Behringer 15's with Eminence drivers(I canned the behringer speakers long ago) powered by a bridged Powerbase 1
. No fx in the monitors. I offered They did not want them.
No other instruments in the monitors.
I know it was her channel feeding back because I muted when I could without interuppting her quickly to see. It did not feedback when she was singer, only when she wasn't.
Mics were all Shure Sm 58's.
Other than that the night went ok. I blew a top but that was unrelated. It had issues cutting out under heavy lad when I bought it. I took it in for service and evidently it is not fixed. I'm gonna replace the board and be done with it.
Here is some you tube links to the gig.
Any help you guys can offer would be awesome. I really am struggling with this stuff a little. If need be I did not change any of the eq setting from  last night so I can post pics of the board too.
Bear in mind the recording is on my phone so it's not good.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmyPAapCCTU&list=UUdb5JicXJ6rEUlfnbrRy3Iw&index=4&feature=plcp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5Gge4DevjE&feature=channel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbLXHRGjlyY&feature=channel



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Kenny Deal

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Re: Had issues doing a sound gig. What is wrong ??
« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2012, 02:37:44 pm »


The main stage the drums and 3 grs barely fit and then the lead singer had a sub stage.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2012, 02:46:46 pm by Kenny Deal »
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Evan Hunter

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Re: Had issues doing a sound gig. What is wrong ??
« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2012, 05:35:44 pm »

It Honestly sounds like a combination of things. The thing that sticks out the most is her being a quiet singer. You could have tried a different mic if available, maybe something super cardioid to help with feedback resistance. No matter what you can only turn them up so loud before feedback, especially if they sing quiet.

This sounds like a good place for High Pass filters as well if your board has them, Or cutting the lows on every channel that does not use those frequencies. It can really help with that low end rumble coming through and clean up your mix.

You had a FOH EQ, what about an EQ on the monitors? With an EQ on the monitors you could ring out the frequencies causing feedback and give yourself some more wiggle room. This would help with the drummers monitor as well. With the other two being stronger singers it would make since that you didnt have any problems. Again, with a quiet singer you can only do so much. It sounds like everything was packed onto a small stage and that wouldnt help either.

One more thing that comes to mind is that as people mix, they tend to keep turning things up. Need this turn it up, cant here that turn it up, more of this turn that up too. Often the better alternative is to turn something down. If you cant hear something ask yourself if it is because something else is masking it. If so turn down what is blocking it instead of cranking what you cant hear. This can really help with budget monitor setups too, but its a little harder since your not on stage with them to hear it.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2012, 06:07:48 pm by Evan Hunter »
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Evan F. Hunter
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Kenny Deal

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Re: Had issues doing a sound gig. What is wrong ??
« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2012, 06:29:40 pm »

Thanks, I did actually use the high pass filters on all the vox, and gtr. basically the only things I left them off on was Bass gtr, kick and the toms. I did not mic the snare because the place was small and the Hi Hat mic more than picked it up anyway.
I was using an Ashly 15 dual 15 band for mon mix 1 and 2. I had a dbx on mix 3(drummer). I think if I put the monitor up higher on a standing pointing at him it would have worked better but they said don't bother.
I was thinking a warmer mic or something too but wanted some opinions on how I set things up. I don't want to mask poor eq'ing with a mic swap. She was very hard to mix. On some songs where she actually belted out I pulled her way down. I'm gonna post some pics of the board and rack settings after I unload the stuff.
People do not appreciate the physical work sound guys have to do. I am feeling it today and this was an easy place to load in and out off.
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Patrick Tracy

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Re: Had issues doing a sound gig. What is wrong ??
« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2012, 06:33:01 pm »

Sounds like poor mic technique. I bet she was too far from the mic when she sang quiet and then leaned in when she sang loud.

Jay Barracato

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Re: Had issues doing a sound gig. What is wrong ??
« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2012, 07:21:14 pm »

Unless the jumpers were changed in your board, the prefade auxes are also pre eq. Any changes you made to her channel would not affect the monitors. Odds are you sucked a lot of good sound out of the mains trying to adjust the monitors with a knob that makes no difference in the monitors.
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Charlie Zureki

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Re: Had issues doing a sound gig. What is wrong ??
« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2012, 08:44:38 pm »

Unless the jumpers were changed in your board, the prefade auxes are also pre eq. Any changes you made to her channel would not affect the monitors. Odds are you sucked a lot of good sound out of the mains trying to adjust the monitors with a knob that makes no difference in the monitors.

  +1

  And.. 15 band eqs are generally worthless.  They just are not precise enough, without cutting/boosting a lot of frequencies on either side of the indicator frequency.

  On small, tight stages, I'd also recommend trying super cardioid Mics. Get a couple of really nice quality Mics.  Keep the 58s for the screamers.

   I think you need to work on your gain structure...there's plenty of good information here in the "Archives".  Are you clipping your Amps?   

   If you're burning up speakers, then, it's very common to not have enough rig.  If you can't get more or a bigger speaker rig, get the Instrument Amps to turn down to give you some headroom for the vocals.  Too-high of stage levels KILL as many shows as crappy musicians!  :o

   Maybe... when doing a sound check...it might be helpful to get levels/ring-out the vocals first, then, set the instrument levels....

   Good Luck,

  Hammer

  ps. don't be afraid to tell someone to turn down

   
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Kenny Deal

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Re: Had issues doing a sound gig. What is wrong ??
« Reply #7 on: March 17, 2012, 09:27:39 pm »

Sounds like poor mic technique. I bet she was too far from the mic when she sang quiet and then leaned in when she sang loud.
yeah she definitely was all over with it. She leaned down into the monitors alot but that was high end feedback. I was able to control that by riding the fader but I had to keep my eye on her.
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Kenny Deal

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Re: Had issues doing a sound gig. What is wrong ??
« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2012, 09:28:23 pm »

Unless the jumpers were changed in your board, the prefade auxes are also pre eq. Any changes you made to her channel would not affect the monitors. Odds are you sucked a lot of good sound out of the mains trying to adjust the monitors with a knob that makes no difference in the monitors.
Hmmm...I think you may have hit the nail on the head. That may be exactly what I did wrong...I didn't know that. I'm not sure if they were on my old Board soundcraft Lx7 but I seemed to have less problems using it. I knew the new board would be a learning curve.
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Kenny Deal

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Re: Had issues doing a sound gig. What is wrong ??
« Reply #9 on: March 17, 2012, 09:33:10 pm »

  +1

  And.. 15 band eqs are generally worthless.  They just are not precise enough, without cutting/boosting a lot of frequencies on either side of the indicator frequency.

  On small, tight stages, I'd also recommend trying super cardioid Mics. Get a couple of really nice quality Mics.  Keep the 58s for the screamers.

   I think you need to work on your gain structure...there's plenty of good information here in the "Archives".  Are you clipping your Amps?   

   If you're burning up speakers, then, it's very common to not have enough rig.  If you can't get more or a bigger speaker rig, get the Instrument Amps to turn down to give you some headroom for the vocals.  Too-high of stage levels KILL as many shows as crappy musicians!  :o

   Maybe... when doing a sound check...it might be helpful to get levels/ring-out the vocals first, then, set the instrument levels....

   Good Luck,

  Hammer

  ps. don't be afraid to tell someone to turn down

 
thanks I will read up. The speaker had issues when I bought it. The person who sold it to me was dishonest about the condition. I tried it out when I bought it but at a very low volume. It worked fine. when I got it home and cranked it up hard it cut out. I thought the driver was fried so I replaced it. No dice. I took it to a Mackie shop. They worked on the board. Thought it was fixed...took it out last night for the first real punishment and it did the same thig so there is an issue with it. I may just buy a new board/amp. For the money I have spent I could have by now. Seems the intermittent problems are always the ones that can be difficult to diagnose.
I'll look for a better eq too. I liked the Ashly over the Rane I have as the slider move more and are less sensitive. I'll see if I can find a comparable one.

The Allen and Heath manual basically suggested using aux 1 and 2 for monitors as also the on board effects can be routed to them as well. I don't know why they are pre eq then. That makes it kinda hard to eq the monitors no ? I mean I can only eq the mix, not each individual channel ? Is that the way it works ? Although I see the caveat if I eq to the monitors then FOH may sound bad and vice versa. I guess that is why in the big venues they use a separate board for monitors huh ?  I wonder if using a 6 channel sub mixer for the monitors would be worth it or am I overthinking/doing it ??
 
« Last Edit: March 17, 2012, 09:37:55 pm by Kenny Deal »
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ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Had issues doing a sound gig. What is wrong ??
« Reply #9 on: March 17, 2012, 09:33:10 pm »


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