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Author Topic: Speaker and Delay Question??  (Read 2453 times)

kendallhadden

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Speaker and Delay Question??
« on: March 15, 2012, 10:35:06 am »

Ok guys, pardon this possible elementary question.  But.... At what distance do you feel more speakers should be added and delays placed on those speakers?  I understand it may not be a specific measurement, but what is a good starting point?
THanks,
Kendall
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Jay Barracato

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Re: Speaker and Delay Question??
« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2012, 10:43:30 am »

Ok guys, pardon this possible elementary question.  But.... At what distance do you feel more speakers should be added and delays placed on those speakers?  I understand it may not be a specific measurement, but what is a good starting point?
THanks,
Kendall

My basic rule of thumb is to use delay speakers when you need excessively loud volume at FOH to cover the back of the audience area. The idea is to cover the audience area with similar volume levels.
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Brad Weber

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Re: Speaker and Delay Question??
« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2012, 11:03:47 am »

Ok guys, pardon this possible elementary question.  But.... At what distance do you feel more speakers should be added and delays placed on those speakers?  I understand it may not be a specific measurement, but what is a good starting point?
It is entirely application dependent.  If your goals include even coverage and good intelligibility in a 'challenging' acoustical environment then you might consider delay fills long before you would in a typical club situation.  It also depends on the mains, if you have a system that allows frequency and/or amplitude shading then that may not require fills where another system would.  Even the specific application such as the mains being flown versus on a stick versus ground stacked may be relevant.  So it is not some much as what distance as it is under what conditions.
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Charlie Zureki

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Re: Speaker and Delay Question??
« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2012, 11:08:03 am »

It is entirely application dependent.  If your goals include even coverage and good intelligibility in a 'challenging' acoustical environment then you might consider delay fills long before you would in a typical club situation.  It also depends on the mains, if you have a system that allows frequency and/or amplitude shading then that may not require fills where another system would.  Even the specific application such as the mains being flown versus on a stick versus ground stacked may be relevant.  So it is not some much as what distance as it is under what conditions.

  +1

  That is the most outstanding answer ever on this subject!   Should be a sticky.

   Hammer
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kendallhadden

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Re: Speaker and Delay Question??
« Reply #4 on: March 15, 2012, 12:44:05 pm »

It is entirely application dependent.  If your goals include even coverage and good intelligibility in a 'challenging' acoustical environment then you might consider delay fills long before you would in a typical club situation.  It also depends on the mains, if you have a system that allows frequency and/or amplitude shading then that may not require fills where another system would.  Even the specific application such as the mains being flown versus on a stick versus ground stacked may be relevant.  So it is not some much as what distance as it is under what conditions.
Brad,
Thanks for the response.  That is a great way of looking at it.  I'm doing a concert in a rather large, high-roofed, gymnasium and I was thinking of putting another set of mains about mid way front to back, with the stage being at the back.  My thinking is that I would be able to keep volume a little lower and still cover.  Is this proper?
kwh
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Jordan Wolf

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Re: Speaker and Delay Question??
« Reply #5 on: March 15, 2012, 12:51:28 pm »

...I'm doing a concert in a rather large, high-roofed, gymnasium and I was thinking of putting another set of mains about mid way front to back, with the stage being at the back.  My thinking is that I would be able to keep volume a little lower and still cover.  Is this proper?
kwh
You're on the right track, I think.  In particularly reverberant spaces like gymnasiums, you should learn to take into consideration two things: "critical distance" and "limiting distance".  See this article by Pat Brown for an explanation and details on how to approximate and/or measure it.
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Re: Speaker and Delay Question??
« Reply #6 on: March 15, 2012, 01:03:41 pm »

Brad,
Thanks for the response.  That is a great way of looking at it.  I'm doing a concert in a rather large, high-roofed, gymnasium and I was thinking of putting another set of mains about mid way front to back, with the stage being at the back.  My thinking is that I would be able to keep volume a little lower and still cover.  Is this proper?
kwh

The ideal situation to think of delay speakers would be outdoors.  No reflections to deal with.

Indoors it's a different story.  You have to deal with the "hang time" of sound in the space and the inevitable reflections from sound striking the various planes represented by the walls, ceiling and floor.

The operative term is "critical distance" which is defined as the point at which the reverberative (reflected) sound is equal to the direct (unreflected) sound.  Those within the critical distance will hear primarily the direct sound and as such will have a more well-defined and intelligible sonic experience.  Those beyond the critical distance will hear primarily reflected sound.....from several different directions, all arriving at slightly different times.  This multiple-arrival scenario means that things will be muddy and less intelligible.

The trick is to keep the direct sound to the max and avoid as much as possible sending the sound energy outside of the listening area where it will be wasted and create troublesome reflections/multiple time arrivals, etc. 

This is best done by using speakers with enough pattern control (this usually means horn-loaded) to direct the sound at the listeners and keep it off of the walls and ceiling.  Being able to get the speakers up in the air and angle them downwards at the audience is also desirable, but not that easily done with flyable cabinets or some kind of tilters.

You say it's a concert, so you'll also be dealing with a separate set of reflections/time arrivals from the stage wash.  All in all, not a really good scenario for clarity.  I'd just resign myself to having a small, manageable area in front of the stage where the sound is acceptable and write off the rest of the area.  Do what you can to direct the sound at the desired (limited) area and forget trying to extend the critical distance in a gym.  It is what it is and delays are probably not going to give you much help.   
« Last Edit: March 15, 2012, 01:05:36 pm by dick rees »
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kendallhadden

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Re: Speaker and Delay Question??
« Reply #7 on: March 15, 2012, 01:59:59 pm »

Thanks Dick,
That makes sense.  A appreciate the explaination.
kwh
The ideal situation to think of delay speakers would be outdoors.  No reflections to deal with.

Indoors it's a different story.  You have to deal with the "hang time" of sound in the space and the inevitable reflections from sound striking the various planes represented by the walls, ceiling and floor.

The operative term is "critical distance" which is defined as the point at which the reverberative (reflected) sound is equal to the direct (unreflected) sound.  Those within the critical distance will hear primarily the direct sound and as such will have a more well-defined and intelligible sonic experience.  Those beyond the critical distance will hear primarily reflected sound.....from several different directions, all arriving at slightly different times.  This multiple-arrival scenario means that things will be muddy and less intelligible.

The trick is to keep the direct sound to the max and avoid as much as possible sending the sound energy outside of the listening area where it will be wasted and create troublesome reflections/multiple time arrivals, etc. 

This is best done by using speakers with enough pattern control (this usually means horn-loaded) to direct the sound at the listeners and keep it off of the walls and ceiling.  Being able to get the speakers up in the air and angle them downwards at the audience is also desirable, but not that easily done with flyable cabinets or some kind of tilters.

You say it's a concert, so you'll also be dealing with a separate set of reflections/time arrivals from the stage wash.  All in all, not a really good scenario for clarity.  I'd just resign myself to having a small, manageable area in front of the stage where the sound is acceptable and write off the rest of the area.  Do what you can to direct the sound at the desired (limited) area and forget trying to extend the critical distance in a gym.  It is what it is and delays are probably not going to give you much help.
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Re: Speaker and Delay Question??
« Reply #7 on: March 15, 2012, 01:59:59 pm »


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