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Author Topic: Help with New Vertec Rig  (Read 11338 times)

Bill Schnake

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Help with New Vertec Rig
« on: March 04, 2012, 11:03:25 am »

Ok, so I am absolutely new to line arrays.  I have an (8) each EAW KF850ef/SB850 system that we have been using for the past 7 years.  I am now to the point that I am considering a line array.  I have worked on the JBL VerTec and the EV Xlc line array as well as the McCauley MLA 6 line array.  That is the total of my experience with line arrays.  We will be keeping the EAW system for ground stacking purposes.

What we do.  We are a small company that does several county and town festivals in Illinois, Wisconsin, Indiana, Iowa and Florida.  Most of these shows are the same and fall into one of two types of shows.  The first is what I refer to as in-the-park.  These are mainly on town squares and parks.  We do a lot of shows with the likes of Marty Stuart, Little Texas, Drifters and some old rockers.  General area coverage is 70 – 100 feet wide and 100 feet deep.  Audience is between 750 and 2000 depending on who, the act is and we try to keep the volume around 105 db as not to run people off. 

The second type of show is the street festival.  These are all on city streets about 40 – 50 feet wide and we need to be able to be heard clearly at 150’ or so.  People will range from 1000 to 2500 maybe a little more on a good day.  Generally, the db at mix, 60’ from the front of the stage is 110 db.  On these we get many more rock acts than anything else.  Mostly they are regional acts with a 70’s/80’s headliner.   On most shows we will either be using Genie Super Towers or if we have to ground stack I will use the EAW 850 system…it’s paid for and does sound really good.

So after that here is what I need to know.  How many boxes per side will it take of the JBL VerTec 4888 speakers in order to make these types of shows work?  Generally speaking the Genie Lifts are roughly 30’ to 40’ apart.  I have never taken the Genies above 18’ however they do extend to 24’.  I currently do and will continue to use front fill speakers for the front of the stage area.  I am currently using EAW KF650z tri-amp front fills.  Eventually, I would move to a JBL front fill as well as the SRX728 subs.

One last question: could this be done using the JBL VerTec 4887A speakers or are they to small for these types of shows?

Thanks in advance for your input.
 :)
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Bill Schnake

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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Help with New Vertec Rig
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2012, 05:43:52 pm »

Ok, so I am absolutely new to line arrays.  I have an (8) each EAW KF850ef/SB850 system that we have been using for the past 7 years.  I am now to the point that I am considering a line array.  I have worked on the JBL VerTec and the EV Xlc line array as well as the McCauley MLA 6 line array.  That is the total of my experience with line arrays.  We will be keeping the EAW system for ground stacking purposes.

What we do.  We are a small company that does several county and town festivals in Illinois, Wisconsin, Indiana, Iowa and Florida.  Most of these shows are the same and fall into one of two types of shows.  The first is what I refer to as in-the-park.  These are mainly on town squares and parks.  We do a lot of shows with the likes of Marty Stuart, Little Texas, Drifters and some old rockers.  General area coverage is 70 – 100 feet wide and 100 feet deep.  Audience is between 750 and 2000 depending on who, the act is and we try to keep the volume around 105 db as not to run people off. 

The second type of show is the street festival.  These are all on city streets about 40 – 50 feet wide and we need to be able to be heard clearly at 150’ or so.  People will range from 1000 to 2500 maybe a little more on a good day.  Generally, the db at mix, 60’ from the front of the stage is 110 db.  On these we get many more rock acts than anything else.  Mostly they are regional acts with a 70’s/80’s headliner.   On most shows we will either be using Genie Super Towers or if we have to ground stack I will use the EAW 850 system…it’s paid for and does sound really good.

So after that here is what I need to know.  How many boxes per side will it take of the JBL VerTec 4888 speakers in order to make these types of shows work?  Generally speaking the Genie Lifts are roughly 30’ to 40’ apart.  I have never taken the Genies above 18’ however they do extend to 24’.  I currently do and will continue to use front fill speakers for the front of the stage area.  I am currently using EAW KF650z tri-amp front fills.  Eventually, I would move to a JBL front fill as well as the SRX728 subs.

One last question: could this be done using the JBL VerTec 4887A speakers or are they to small for these types of shows?

Thanks in advance for your input.
 :)

Hi Bill-

I strongly suggest you download and use JBL's Line Array Calc 2.  You will want to read the instructions that are included in the Zip file to get a better understanding of how to use it.  You will be able to make SPL/distance determinations.

Line arrays are all about the OUTPUT from EACH box, the length of the line, and the vertical coverage geometry of the audience area.

I would NOT use Genie material lifts or Super Towers outdoors.  Genie specifically says they are not rated for outdoor use.  If you have a failure or blow-down, you are 100% liable, not Genie.  Several truss manufacturers build outdoor-rated lifts for line arrays, among them are Applied Electronics.

The 4887A is a nice little box, but hitting 150' without a long line and trim height to match will lead to disappointing results.  We own 16 of them and find them to work best out to about 100'.  We also own 24 4889 and the difference is astounding.  I've heard (but not set up or mixed on) 4888 rigs and I think they are on the moderate overkill side for you, but 87's will not be enough.

Remember that you need to have enough boxes/side to cover the audience area.  Adding more boxes doesn't work the same way you might be accustomed to with the KF rig.  Learn to use and rely upon the manufacturer's prediction software regardless of what product you buy.

Have fun, good luck.

Tim Mc
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paul bell

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Re: Help with New Vertec Rig
« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2012, 06:02:32 pm »

Hey Bill, welcome to The LAB!

I'm curious. Between the JBL, EAW and McCauley rigs you've used, which one did you like the most?
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Riley Casey

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Re: Help with New Vertec Rig
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2012, 06:38:48 pm »

One suggestion I would make that is totally unrelated to the merits of any particular brand and model is a strictly business consideration.   Don't buy anything that you can't  cross rent more of easily.  Line arrays are not a mix and match proposition.  Buy what your competitors are already using and have in stock. 

Bill Schnake

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Re: Help with New Vertec Rig
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2012, 07:55:03 pm »

Hi Bill-

I strongly suggest you download and use JBL's Line Array Calc 2.  You will want to read the instructions that are included in the Zip file to get a better understanding of how to use it.  You will be able to make SPL/distance determinations.

Line arrays are all about the OUTPUT from EACH box, the length of the line, and the vertical coverage geometry of the audience area.

I would NOT use Genie material lifts or Super Towers outdoors.  Genie specifically says they are not rated for outdoor use.  If you have a failure or blow-down, you are 100% liable, not Genie.  Several truss manufacturers build outdoor-rated lifts for line arrays, among them are Applied Electronics.

The 4887A is a nice little box, but hitting 150' without a long line and trim height to match will lead to disappointing results.  We own 16 of them and find them to work best out to about 100'.  We also own 24 4889 and the difference is astounding.  I've heard (but not set up or mixed on) 4888 rigs and I think they are on the moderate overkill side for you, but 87's will not be enough.

Remember that you need to have enough boxes/side to cover the audience area.  Adding more boxes doesn't work the same way you might be accustomed to with the KF rig.  Learn to use and rely upon the manufacturer's prediction software regardless of what product you buy.

Have fun, good luck.

Tim Mc

Tim, thanks for the reply.  I am less concerned about over kill and more concerned about not having enough.  We do some larger shows that we have been using additional KF850s with.  We spent some time with Brett Michaels last year and we have done some dates with the Beach Boys.  I am looking at this as a starter line array that can grow.  I origially started out looking at the 4887a thinking that it would be a great box for this type of work.  Then I did the where do I want to be 5 years from now and decided that the 4888 would be a better box that I would be able to cross rent with another company in the area. 

I have downloaded the line array calc 2 software, but have not worked through how to use it as of yet.  I downloaded it this morning.  Hopefully, I can build a couple of the venues that we work in and see what the calculator says.

Thanks again for the advice.  It isn't easy doing the line array after working so long on the KF850 boxes.

bill
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Bill Schnake

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Bill Schnake

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Re: Help with New Vertec Rig
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2012, 07:58:59 pm »

One suggestion I would make that is totally unrelated to the merits of any particular brand and model is a strictly business consideration.   Don't buy anything that you can't  cross rent more of easily.  Line arrays are not a mix and match proposition.  Buy what your competitors are already using and have in stock.

Riley, thanks for the reply.  I agree 100% with what you are saying on the cross rental of equipment.  One of the reasons that I have been looking at the arrays that I have is that very reason.  I will be able to get more of any of the three when I need and be able to rent mine when it is not in use.   8)

Thanks
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Bill Schnake

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Bill Schnake

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Re: Help with New Vertec Rig
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2012, 08:07:53 pm »

Hey Bill, welcome to The LAB!

I'm curious. Between the JBL, EAW and McCauley rigs you've used, which one did you like the most?

Hi Paul, of the three that I have used the best sounding was the ML6 system by McCauley.  That being said the EAW and JBL rigs were not tuned correctly.  I have heard both the EAW and JBL rigs sound fantastic but the ones I used both had mis-matched amps and I don't think the companys that owned them took time to tune them correctly.

I talked with the owner of the McCauley and he said that they bought matchng amps and spent 18 hours the first time they used the system tuning it.  The Vertec system at Riverport Areana in St Louis also sounds great.

Thanks
bill
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Bill Schnake

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Tim Weaver

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Re: Help with New Vertec Rig
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2012, 08:33:34 pm »

I work with 4888's a lot and the problem you have is that most of the lifts in the "Genie" categorie will only support 5 88's. Even that is pushing it. For your use I would like to see 8 a side. You could get by with 6/side, but when you get to 8 of them in a line they really start working right.

Are these festivals using a truss roof? If so, you can get the fly bays added to the roof. That will let you fly as many cabs as you need.
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Chuck Fudge

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Re: Help with New Vertec Rig
« Reply #8 on: March 05, 2012, 11:25:04 am »

Bill,

I know your locality, and what is available.  EV XLC is prominent, but is not a box for the genie lift type market.  Your limited by your Genies.

Take a look at NEXO and Martin.  Very prominent in St. Louis and Chicago markets.  Consider tower lifts. 

Chuck
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Jim McKeveny

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Re: Help with New Vertec Rig
« Reply #9 on: March 05, 2012, 12:10:25 pm »

In 5 years, even if the EAW's sound fine, they will not be in any way acceptable, in any condition or quantity. They really aren't now. Sell them off to a club install.

4888's are the sweet spot in the VerTec range, but they are "mature" in a products lifespan. I would be disinclined to purchase them new. 12-24 used 88's could be a wise move, as well as appropriate suspension towers. Your new towers can be cross-rented for anyone's rig. Anything less is a sideways move.

Whatever is good-enough today will be inadequate tomorrow, and tomorrow is soon. (I remember when 16 channels was enough, then 24, then)....It is the nature of our business.
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Re: Help with New Vertec Rig
Β« Reply #9 on: March 05, 2012, 12:10:25 pm Β»


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