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Author Topic: Starting from scratch - back in biz  (Read 25318 times)

kristianjohnsen

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Re: Starting from scratch - back in biz
« Reply #20 on: February 08, 2012, 04:31:51 PM »

So, the new world thinking is:

Go Digital Console/Snake
Use Console software for Effects, Compression, House EQ
Use Digital Speaker Controls (Outboard or built into AMPs)

So, when not using a monitor mixing console with it's own onboard eq etc. and using pre-fade monitor control from house mixer, how does one EQ the monitor mix w/o outboard EQs?

I assume monitors need DSP as well, built into AMPS or Outboard?

Bob.

Here's how I would build my systems in your place:


Mixers:

One midsized digital with a native digital snake and remote control preamps with recall.
No outboard for the digital.

One 16 ch analog mixer with either a built in reverb unit or an external unit sitting in the same rack.
If any outboard for the analog a 4ch gate and a 4 ch comp in the same rack as the mixer.

One 4 channel "mixpad".


Loudspeakers:

All speakers active, must have built in x-over/processing.  No amp racks, much more fool-proof in set-up and use.  Any speaker can be used on it's own or with any other speaker.

Subs and mains that can be moved and stacked by one person.  Enough that you can have two separate fully functional systems, but they must array well together to be used as one bigger system.

Monitors/wedges that can be used as small mains (pole mount).  Must have mic input for super simple rentals.  Use subs from the bigger systems to complement these for certain gigs.

One extra of the same kind of sub as in the main system to be used as drumfill sub for "big gigs" and will function as a in-house spare otherwise.

Don't buy crappy speakers to be able to get them all at once.  A few good ones are a much better investment than many bad ones.  3 subs, 2 mains and 5 monitors will get you started in club world.

Mics:

The best you can afford.  Mics are pretty much the only things in audio that don't completely nosedive in value after 5 minutes.

Buy 2 channels of really good wireless mics.  Forget about buying 12 channels of cheapos.


Stands:

Very high quality.  Don't get a starter pack, etc, it's a waste.  Just splurge and get a really nice stand package with a great flight case that actually protects the stands from more than rain and dust.  This is a decision you will not regret. 

6 roundbase shorties, 8 tall tripods and 2 tall roundbases is a good place to start.  Also buy some clamps, "Cabgrabbers", etc.



Trunks for stands, mics, cables:

The ones you buy now will outlive you if you buy the right ones.  Get standard measurements.  These will be worth more if you want to get out of the business again and sell them.



Cables:

Get a super pro distro system.  This will last forever, also. 

Make looms or make "combination-cables" for all your speakers.

Make a great assortment of the really good power strips, etc for backline, FOH use, etc.

Get a drum of rubberjacket power cable equal in lenght to your audio snake.

Make real XLR-cables.  Again, forget the starter packs.

Buy three "stage snakes"/"sub snakes" with 12 lines in them.  Get some "genderbenders" that will allow you to use these subsnakes as the main snakes for the little analog mixer.



Organizing it all:

Think long and hard about how your systems will be used in real life.  You have the luxory of not having a bunch of "legacy stuff" that needs to be incorporated in the new system.  Design everything from scratch!  Spend actual money on the organizing, even if it means getting less gear now.  A good "infrastructure" will stay with you when you get the next system.  A bad one will be replaced with the gear even if it's not really worn out yet.



Here are a few general ideas:

Put a talkback mic, headset, etc in the "doghouse" of the mixers.

Have a smallish cable trunk that always accompanies the big mixer to FOH.  This will house the digital snake reel, power cable reel, an assortment of power strips, patch cords, a separate roll of tape from the one in the XLR trunk on stage, etc.  Your aim is to walk to FOH, and never having to leave that area until it's time to lay down the snake and then start setting up the stage.   PS:  You can even sit on the trunk during shows :)

Have a cable trunk that always accompanies the stage preamp rack.  This will house subsnakes, XLRs, backline power strips, gaff tape, genderbenders for the subsnakes, etc.

Organize a super-clever cable system for your active speakers.  Think hard about what lenghts to get and what doubles, etc.  Organize three cases with a predetermined content:  Two small and one big.  Big show:  Small set for PA, big for monitors.  Medium show:  Just the big cable set.  Small gigs, just the small sets, one for each system.

Organize all you cables in such a manner that you have as little gear as possible purchased only for the big shows.  Try to never buy an item that cannot be used in all configurations of your gear, you just bring more of the same stuff to bigger gigs.

Buy cheaper, flimsyish cases and internally organize your cables in them and in turn let them reside in your bigger trunks.  Label every case with exact contents.  That way it's a lot easier to take what you need for a small gig out of the big-gig trunks in a hurry.  Try to make sure that you never have to pick out individual cables from the cheaper inner trunks:  Organize everything so that you always bring complete cases of cables, no loose stuff to lose :D  Example:  The main stage cable trunk has two smaller inner cases that each house one or two sub snakes, an assortment of XLRs and the genderbenders.  That way you can quickly split the main trunk into two cable sets and send off on two medium sized gigs.  For a big gig you just bring the main case and everything is there when you open it at the venue.

Best of luck to you in your new endeavours,

Best regards,

Kristian Johnsen



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Bob Lentz

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Re: Starting from scratch - back in biz
« Reply #21 on: February 08, 2012, 05:32:55 PM »

I'm not starting - I've been drooling since Dec. 20th when the teaser came out.  Unfortunately my drooling hasn't yet turned into a pre-order since the cost is 20% more than I was expecting and they've left out my pet feature - the De-Esser.  I may still pull the trigger, but for now I'm just going to get a bucket.

Tom,
what is the exact model no of the A&G GLD You are so excited about? :)
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TJ (Tom) Cornish

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Re: Starting from scratch - back in biz
« Reply #22 on: February 08, 2012, 05:36:13 PM »

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Bob Lentz

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Re: Starting from scratch - back in biz
« Reply #23 on: February 08, 2012, 05:40:48 PM »

Bob.

Here's how I would build my systems in your place:


Mixers:

One midsized digital with a native digital snake and remote control preamps with recall.
No outboard for the digital.

One 16 ch analog mixer with either a built in reverb unit or an external unit sitting in the same rack.
If any outboard for the analog a 4ch gate and a 4 ch comp in the same rack as the mixer.

One 4 channel "mixpad".


Loudspeakers:

All speakers active, must have built in x-over/processing.  No amp racks, much more fool-proof in set-up and use.  Any speaker can be used on it's own or with any other speaker.

Subs and mains that can be moved and stacked by one person.  Enough that you can have two separate fully functional systems, but they must array well together to be used as one bigger system.

Monitors/wedges that can be used as small mains (pole mount).  Must have mic input for super simple rentals.  Use subs from the bigger systems to complement these for certain gigs.

One extra of the same kind of sub as in the main system to be used as drumfill sub for "big gigs" and will function as a in-house spare otherwise.

Don't buy crappy speakers to be able to get them all at once.  A few good ones are a much better investment than many bad ones.  3 subs, 2 mains and 5 monitors will get you started in club world.

Mics:

The best you can afford.  Mics are pretty much the only things in audio that don't completely nosedive in value after 5 minutes.

Buy 2 channels of really good wireless mics.  Forget about buying 12 channels of cheapos.


Stands:

Very high quality.  Don't get a starter pack, etc, it's a waste.  Just splurge and get a really nice stand package with a great flight case that actually protects the stands from more than rain and dust.  This is a decision you will not regret. 

6 roundbase shorties, 8 tall tripods and 2 tall roundbases is a good place to start.  Also buy some clamps, "Cabgrabbers", etc.



Trunks for stands, mics, cables:

The ones you buy now will outlive you if you buy the right ones.  Get standard measurements.  These will be worth more if you want to get out of the business again and sell them.



Cables:

Get a super pro distro system.  This will last forever, also. 

Make looms or make "combination-cables" for all your speakers.

Make a great assortment of the really good power strips, etc for backline, FOH use, etc.

Get a drum of rubberjacket power cable equal in lenght to your audio snake.

Make real XLR-cables.  Again, forget the starter packs.

Buy three "stage snakes"/"sub snakes" with 12 lines in them.  Get some "genderbenders" that will allow you to use these subsnakes as the main snakes for the little analog mixer.



Organizing it all:

Think long and hard about how your systems will be used in real life.  You have the luxory of not having a bunch of "legacy stuff" that needs to be incorporated in the new system.  Design everything from scratch!  Spend actual money on the organizing, even if it means getting less gear now.  A good "infrastructure" will stay with you when you get the next system.  A bad one will be replaced with the gear even if it's not really worn out yet.



Here are a few general ideas:

Put a talkback mic, headset, etc in the "doghouse" of the mixers.

Have a smallish cable trunk that always accompanies the big mixer to FOH.  This will house the digital snake reel, power cable reel, an assortment of power strips, patch cords, a separate roll of tape from the one in the XLR trunk on stage, etc.  Your aim is to walk to FOH, and never having to leave that area until it's time to lay down the snake and then start setting up the stage.   PS:  You can even sit on the trunk during shows :)

Have a cable trunk that always accompanies the stage preamp rack.  This will house subsnakes, XLRs, backline power strips, gaff tape, genderbenders for the subsnakes, etc.

Organize a super-clever cable system for your active speakers.  Think hard about what lenghts to get and what doubles, etc.  Organize three cases with a predetermined content:  Two small and one big.  Big show:  Small set for PA, big for monitors.  Medium show:  Just the big cable set.  Small gigs, just the small sets, one for each system.

Organize all you cables in such a manner that you have as little gear as possible purchased only for the big shows.  Try to never buy an item that cannot be used in all configurations of your gear, you just bring more of the same stuff to bigger gigs.

Buy cheaper, flimsyish cases and internally organize your cables in them and in turn let them reside in your bigger trunks.  Label every case with exact contents.  That way it's a lot easier to take what you need for a small gig out of the big-gig trunks in a hurry.  Try to make sure that you never have to pick out individual cables from the cheaper inner trunks:  Organize everything so that you always bring complete cases of cables, no loose stuff to lose :D  Example:  The main stage cable trunk has two smaller inner cases that each house one or two sub snakes, an assortment of XLRs and the genderbenders.  That way you can quickly split the main trunk into two cable sets and send off on two medium sized gigs.  For a big gig you just bring the main case and everything is there when you open it at the venue.

Best of luck to you in your new endeavours,

Best regards,

Kristian Johnsen

Kristian,

You have a lot of great suggestions, many of which we employed back in the day. Some things never change - the core basics of organization and preparedness.  We always built all our own trunks out of birch - they were heavy and when loaded up w/ cables, fork lifts or Mr. Arnold were needed to lift:)

What size of ATA trunks would you recommend?
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Re: Starting from scratch - back in biz
« Reply #24 on: February 08, 2012, 06:48:14 PM »

I'm no expert by any means but I dio alot of sound in bars in small clubs for bands and the self powered stuff keeps it real simple. I use Mackie sa1521z's and swa 1501s and have handled some pretty decent sized venues with plenty of Headroom. I had to have one of the Sa1521z's fixed a couple weeks ago. was a loose cap on the board. . The guys at Pane Audio in Mass fixed it on the spot and while they were doing it I got to check out some of the self power EAW stuff....DAMN....If you got the money, that stuff sounded amazing to me. I'm a bit challenged on tech spec stuff but I can tell you when something sounds good and they sure did.
Hope that helps. As far as monitors, Mackie SRM450s(1st gen are better IMO) sound awesome but I do sound in alot of craphole dives and the monitors take a beating so I use cheapy Behringers that I put Eminence Speakers in. I sold the Mackies because if some moron spills something in it can fry the amp and the rcf speakers are bucks to replace.
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Mike Christy

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Re: Starting from scratch - back in biz
« Reply #25 on: February 08, 2012, 07:13:58 PM »

I got to check out some of the self power EAW stuff....DAMN....If you got the money, that stuff sounded amazing to me.

Wesley, were they KF364NTs by chance???
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Re: Starting from scratch - back in biz
« Reply #26 on: February 08, 2012, 09:17:57 PM »

To be honest I did not get the model #s but I could call them tommorow and ask. I was supposed to do sound for our churches fundraiser that night and the Mackie started cutting out so I ran it up there on a sat expecting just to drop it off and they took it apart and fixed it on the spot. Awesome guys. I was able to use it that night. I can tell you if you use Mackie self powered take it to an audio shop and havve them shoot silicone  around the caps and to the board. it seems to be a common problem with Mackie power amps.
Those EAW's rocked though. 

As far as mixers go, I am a low tech so I still use analog. I have had a few different mackie boards that IMHO held up really well to abuse but were noisy and I never liked the pre amps. I have a Soundcraft spirit live LX7 and I love the board but it is a bit more fragile. Forget about parts..Non existent save for ebay...lol
« Last Edit: February 08, 2012, 09:22:21 PM by Wesley Deihl »
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Micky Basiliere

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Re: Starting from scratch - back in biz
« Reply #27 on: February 08, 2012, 09:39:22 PM »

 :-\Funny how i'm seeing more and more outboard gear (in or out of racks..) along side "high end" digital desks at gigs(concerts,etc.) these days... and it ain't power supplies or digital snakes either! just sayin'  ..I'll take the APB anyday!! :)

To be honest I did not get the model #s but I could call them tommorow and ask. I was supposed to do sound for our churches fundraiser that night and the Mackie started cutting out so I ran it up there on a sat expecting just to drop it off and they took it apart and fixed it on the spot. Awesome guys. I was able to use it that night. I can tell you if you use Mackie self powered take it to an audio shop and havve them shoot silicone  around the caps and to the board. it seems to be a common problem with Mackie power amps.
Those EAW's rocked though. 

As far as mixers go, I am a low tech so I still use analog. I have had a few different mackie boards that IMHO held up really well to abuse but were noisy and I never liked the pre amps. I have a Soundcraft spirit live LX7 and I love the board but it is a bit more fragile. Forget about parts..Non existent save for ebay...lol
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Re: Starting from scratch - back in biz
« Reply #28 on: February 08, 2012, 09:51:39 PM »

OK, I'm a newb so flame away...:)
What is APB ?
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Mac Kerr

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Re: Starting from scratch - back in biz
« Reply #29 on: February 08, 2012, 09:56:39 PM »

OK, I'm a newb so flame away...:)
What is APB ?

APB Dynasonics is a manufacturer of high quality analog mixing consoles and some other audio devices. The principals of the company often participate here.

Mac
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ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Starting from scratch - back in biz
« Reply #29 on: February 08, 2012, 09:56:39 PM »


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