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Author Topic: FOH stack seeks like-minded sub recommenations  (Read 6526 times)

Dan Lawrence

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Re: FOH stack seeks like-minded sub recommenations
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2012, 12:53:18 pm »



... and DDS is in Texas, not Washington ... what a mornin'!
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Mac Kerr

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Re: FOH stack seeks like-minded sub recommenations
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2012, 01:26:14 pm »

Thanks for chiming in Mac. I will research my data sheets (not here now) for the required info. One thing, do you want to know potential frequency ranges for the speakers, or the crossover points I'm currently using?

Secondly, in regard to frequency response vs. horizontal and vertical coverage, I am not sure how to express that in language, as opposed to posting the response graphs.

In a system like yours so much is dependent on system setup and system processing that speaker specs are of little use. None of it is likely applicable to the choice of a sub except the output and frequency response of the low frequency system (not driver). Within your budget the choices are limited, and suggestions based on budget are just as valid as on any other information.

Mac
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Michael Storey

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Re: FOH stack seeks like-minded sub recommenations
« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2012, 06:08:55 pm »

I am looking for some recommendations for a set of subwoofers for my passive speaker system. The system is mobile, and designed to handle mid-sized clubs to small (?) halls.  I am looking for both a manufacturer recommendation, and a size rating which will match this spread:

JBL 2226H Low Freq "15,  range 30 - 2.5kHz 600 watts

JBL 2012H mid/low "10, horn-loaded 75-7.5Khz range 300W

JBL 2446H Hi Freq. compression driver -  (4" voice coil) 500-20Khz
   Range - 100/150W    (150 continuous over 1Kz - I split it off at 1.5-2k))

Signal processing is mainly done through a Driverack 4800.

A few notes on my particular preferences or (mis)conceptions:

1) Would prefer a passive speaker for the weight efficiency and volume control from the rack instead of at the speaker itself. Isn't passive doesn't more efficient in terms of current consumption?

2) Love my JBL's, but I compared some "consumer-grade" subs a few years back for lack of options. The JBL's (don't recall the model #) rattled and shook as opposed to the round, tight sound I prefer. I want a set that can be felt in the belly, but have more fat bounce than rattle, and sound good for most varieties of music.

3) I would prefer to keep it to one cabinet per side for now, provided it is practical for a power output which would match the above listing.

4)  Budget is $1,000 to  $1,500 per side (sub). The lower end of that budget, still affords a good  power amp to run them (bridged mono). I currently use mostly Lab Gruppen fp series to drive the stack,  and wonder if I should use the standard 2 - 2.5 times power overrating for amp sizing when it comes to subs. (Assuming the system would be used for bass-heavy rock and hip-hop, and dance/trance/techno.)

5) I don't have a workshop or apartment space to build the "LABs".

Sounds like you might have heard the JBL SRX 728 or 718 and didn't care for the trade off of upper end punch and efficiency for the deeper low end extension. Fair enough.

If you just want the "kick me the gut" sound, consider the Yorkville LS1004 - 2x18", or LS808 - single 18". They both don't play very low, but have excellent "punch" and get loud off of little power.
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John Halliburton

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Re: FOH stack seeks like-minded sub recommenations
« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2012, 09:07:03 am »

I am looking for some recommendations for a set of subwoofers for my passive speaker system. The system is mobile, and designed to handle mid-sized clubs to small (?) halls.  I am looking for both a manufacturer recommendation, and a size rating which will match this spread:

JBL 2226H Low Freq "15,  range 30 - 2.5kHz 600 watts

JBL 2012H mid/low "10, horn-loaded 75-7.5Khz range 300W

JBL 2446H Hi Freq. compression driver -  (4" voice coil) 500-20Khz
   Range - 100/150W    (150 continuous over 1Kz - I split it off at 1.5-2k))

Signal processing is mainly done through a Driverack 4800.

A few notes on my particular preferences or (mis)conceptions:

1) Would prefer a passive speaker for the weight efficiency and volume control from the rack instead of at the speaker itself. Isn't passive doesn't more efficient in terms of current consumption?

2) Love my JBL's, but I compared some "consumer-grade" subs a few years back for lack of options. The JBL's (don't recall the model #) rattled and shook as opposed to the round, tight sound I prefer. I want a set that can be felt in the belly, but have more fat bounce than rattle, and sound good for most varieties of music.

3) I would prefer to keep it to one cabinet per side for now, provided it is practical for a power output which would match the above listing.

4)  Budget is $1,000 to  $1,500 per side (sub). The lower end of that budget, still affords a good  power amp to run them (bridged mono). I currently use mostly Lab Gruppen fp series to drive the stack,  and wonder if I should use the standard 2 - 2.5 times power overrating for amp sizing when it comes to subs. (Assuming the system would be used for bass-heavy rock and hip-hop, and dance/trance/techno.)

5) I don't have a workshop or apartment space to build the "LABs".

It also doesn't sound like you have your tops assembled either...more info on how these speakers are set up, processed, and deployed will help others here make better suggestions.  Budget limitations when you're using Lab Gruppens already? Doesn't make sense.  Sell the Labs and get enough amps from another company...and yes, I'm giving you a hard time. ;>)

What kind of sound work are you providing? Live rock? Dance, hip hop, dub, trance....?  Choice of subs here can help. 

The ones mentioned already are certainly candidates.  Also look into the JTR Growler, and products by Danley Sound Labs, although they could be out of the budget.  There were some Danley TH115 up for sale here a little while ago.

I'll make some observations and assumptions.

First, either 10" horn from DDS is only recommended for use down to 250hz.  That's where you'd want to cross the horn over to the JBL2226 driver.  The 2226 will never do 30hz in a real world situation.  Let it be the mid bass driver between 80-250hz.

The JBL 2446 will be hard pressed to get out past 15khz, regardless of the horn used.  Not the end of the world here though.

Your new subs should crossover around 80-100hz to the JBL 2226's.

Best regards,

John




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Dan Lawrence

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Re: FOH stack seeks like-minded sub recommenations
« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2012, 09:48:28 pm »

It also doesn't sound like you have your tops assembled either...more info on how these speakers are set up, processed, and deployed will help others here make better suggestions.  Budget limitations when you're using Lab Gruppens already? Doesn't make sense.  Sell the Labs and get enough amps from another company...and yes, I'm giving you a hard time. ;>)

What kind of sound work are you providing? Live rock? Dance, hip hop, dub, trance....?  Choice of subs here can help. 

The ones mentioned already are certainly candidates.  Also look into the JTR Growler, and products by Danley Sound Labs, although they could be out of the budget.  There were some Danley TH115 up for sale here a little while ago.

I'll make some observations and assumptions.

First, either 10" horn from DDS is only recommended for use down to 250hz.  That's where you'd want to cross the horn over to the JBL2226 driver.  The 2226 will never do 30hz in a real world situation.  Let it be the mid bass driver between 80-250hz.

The JBL 2446 will be hard pressed to get out past 15khz, regardless of the horn used.  Not the end of the world here though.

Your new subs should crossover around 80-100hz to the JBL 2226's.

Best regards,

John


Thanks John, and all others, for the inputs on manufacturer recommendations. As for Crossover points, the low mid split is currently between 280 and 300. Still experimenting with where that sounds best. The mids are also easiest to give the spread on. The DDS horns have a dispersion angle of 70 x 60 degrees. As for the hi's and lows, I was surprised the original literature didn't list those angles. I also noticed many performance specs listed there vary from speaker to speaker. I'll do more research on the dispersion patterns, and which horn is on the hi's.

As for the lab gruppen's, I had a chance to get some older ones in great shape at a great deal. I really liked the way they sounded, and chose to fill out my system w/them, cuz of the great deal I was getting. I have a host of other brands too, lower output powers for other configs, etc, but I really like the labs. What can I say, when I find something I like, I go with it. As for the 718/728 sound, I had been reading that they have an emphasized low end, as opposed to the punch. Could well be that's what I heard. But do to limited access to inventory and different manufacturers, I may have heard something in the MRX line. Still hope to clarify that. As for what types of shows, its varies from rock and blues to some hip hop and some techno, but I'm reluctant to buy the subs to lean heavily towards the current trend in rattling low end rumble. Maybe all the groups (or sound companies) don't mix it that way but I hear that a lot lately, where a sub-sonic low end seems to dominate the mix.

What I'm still grappling with is just what specs help determine what output size to shoot for. Would I need a 728 or pair of 718's to match my current output potential? I'm relisting the speakers w/ extra specs I do have, minus the hi horn model #.

JBL 2226H (8 ohm) Low Freq "15,  range 30 - 2.5kHz 600 watts. Max Recommended freq. 1200Hz. Currently carrying 90 - 300 hz (when sub is used)
   Sensitivity 97 dB 1w/m. On axis, maintains a relatively flat response between 50 and 400hz Power compression =  .7dB @ -10dB (60W)/ 2.5 @ -3dB (300W)/ 4.0 dB @ 600w rated power. Distortion <1% 2nd, 3rd order 

JBL 2012H (8 ohm) mid/low "10, 75-7.5Khz range, target range 100 to 1600Hz (5.5kHz Max) 300W Currently Carrying 300-1600Hz Sensitivity 100 dB 1W/m.  P. Compression = .6 @ -10dB (30W)/2.0 @ -3dB (150W) 3.4 @ rated 300W Distortion <1%,2nd, 3rd order. On axis dispersion pattern < 45 degrees, but w/ DDS horn, has dispersion of 70 X 60 degrees.
            
JBL 2446H (8 ohm) Hi Freq. compression driver - (4" voice coil)          500-20Khz    Range - 100/150W    (150 continuous over 1Kz)
         Sensitivity 111dB 1W/m
« Last Edit: February 18, 2012, 11:21:30 pm by Mac Kerr »
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John Halliburton

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Re: FOH stack seeks like-minded sub recommenations
« Reply #15 on: February 19, 2012, 01:08:35 pm »

...but I'm reluctant to buy the subs to lean heavily towards the current trend in rattling low end rumble. Maybe all the groups (or sound companies) don't mix it that way but I hear that a lot lately, where a sub-sonic low end seems to dominate the mix.

If you're providing for techno, trance, electronic, and other genres that incorporate that very low frequency content, I don't see how you have any other choice but to build or buy subs that are capable of reproducing this material.

Quote
What I'm still grappling with is just what specs help determine what output size to shoot for. Would I need a 728 or pair of 718's to match my current output potential? I'm relisting the speakers w/ extra specs I do have, minus the hi horn model #.

Honestly, no, I don't see the JBL's doing it for the spec.  You'd have to look at the larger concert subs perhaps, or some Danley products, or JTR Orbit Shifters or Captivators.

What you do is develop different voicings for your system in your processing that will provide the sound qualities desired for other genres, ie., one basic move will be raising the high pass filter function on the subwoofers for a regular rock band.

For the components so far, I'd recommend a pair of subs underneath each 2226/2012/2446 stack to start, and I'm talking something along the lines of a dual 18, Danley TH188, or JTR Orbit Shifter.  One thing that hasn't been talked about is the difference in sensitivity to frequencies that human hearing exhibits, as well as the decrease in producing lower frequencies efficiently.

Best regards,

John
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Re: FOH stack seeks like-minded sub recommenations
« Reply #15 on: February 19, 2012, 01:08:35 pm »


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