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[Tim Weaver]

OK, I will take the speakers out of the cabinet and see what they do, also I was going to ohm them to be sure the one in question is reading close to 8 ohms

They won't. They'll be much lower than that, but don't fret. If you get a reading at all it's good. Next step is to make sure they are all similar to each other.

2* The drivers are missmatched, there is one old (reconed in 02 according to the info on the back) and one new B52 in each cabinet, so I was wondering if that was a problem, If I need to get 4 new 18s, what would be the correct speaker for the cabinet, Model no? I have no idea, cant find one on the cabinet anywhere. I am trying to put a photo on this

They look more like homebuilts to me. If they are, then I would call Parts Express with the cabinet dimensions and they will help you get proper drivers for those cabinets

3* I have checked polarity with the battery, it's good, I will double check wiring on both cabinets to see they match

4* Yes, running three way, one crown 802 on each sub, two more amps running stereo for mids and highs

5* 2" horn

Thats a big horn flare! Thats good, BTW. Are those 12's in the midrange?

Just offhand I would run the hi pass for the horns from 1.2khz 18db butterworth. I would probably use a 1.2khz lo pass on the mids. Also 18db butterworth.

Without being there to listen to them that's about the best I can offer. It's much harder to tweak the mid to hi XO point by ear than it is the sub to mid.

All of my recommendations for XO points and slopes are very conservative. They can be pushed around a little to suit your taste, but don't run the horns any lower than 1k at the least.

[Tim Weaver]

One more thing, just go through the cabs and make sure all the nuts, bolts, and screws are tight. Sometimes panel vibrations can make really nasty sounds if they are loose and vibrating against another hard part. Leaking handle holes and what not need to be fixed. The only air in or out of the cabinet needs to be via the tuning port.

[Greg g. Pierce]

They won't. They'll be much lower than that, but don't fret. If you get a reading at all it's good. Next step is to make sure they are all similar to each other.They look more like homebuilts to me. If they are, then I would call Parts Express with the cabinet dimensions and they will help you get proper drivers for those cabinets
Thats a big horn flare! Thats good, BTW. Are those 12's in the midrange?

Just offhand I would run the hi pass for the horns from 1.2khz 18db butterworth. I would probably use a 1.2khz lo pass on the mids. Also 18db butterworth.

Without being there to listen to them that's about the best I can offer. It's much harder to tweak the mid to hi XO point by ear than it is the sub to mid.

All of my recommendations for XO points and slopes are very conservative. They can be pushed around a little to suit your taste, but don't run the horns any lower than 1k at the least.

Thanks Tim, the mids are 15's

I was "told" the cabinets are PAS cabs. they have the flying hardware and the pas plates on the area with the neutrik cable connectors, of course you can be told anything, and the plates can be put on.

I will change the xover points for the mids/highs to what you suggest. The dbx drpa has a pretty good boost in the highs in the graph settings, I will get into changing that later too. I will address these speakers first and see if I can figure out what should be in there. I will see if I can get ahold of PAS. I remember looking online for them last year when we bought this stuff and couldnt find them.

Thanks for your help, I will spend the weekend fooling around and see what I can find out further about these things and the speakers.

[Greg g. Pierce]

Greg-

After reading your post again, are you referring to the the speakers in the sub cabinets?  If you're talking about the LF section of your top boxes, read on...  That sounds very much like an error in patching either the Driverack or amp-to-speaker cabling.  If you're sending the Sub signal to the the LF, it's certainly bottoming-out.  From your original post, it sounded like only the subs were giving you problems...

What we mean by that term is that the voice coil form (the cylindrical bobbin the coil is wound on) is striking the back plate of the pole piece.  It happens because of "over-excursion" which occurs when the speaker's mechanical limits of cone & suspension movement are being exceeded.  That usually happens because the transducer is being worked at a frequency below cut-off; with too much power; or a combination of both (the sub High Pass filter is an example of correction for this).

Make absolutely certain that the pass bands that make up your speaker system are getting only the signals they should.

FWIW, on several occasions over the centuries I have mixed on a PAS rig like you describe.  The tops weren't a problem, but the subs never were satisfying.  At one install the same sub box repeatedly exhibited speaker failures.  I chalked it up to an air leak in the cabinet, but the owner was never able to find one, or any other difference between the cabs... but the stage left subs went through a half dozen re-cones in 13 months.  At another install where I was the Band Engineer, the rig never got enough thump and the house guy freaked out at the amount of sub I wanted to use, the manager was worried about noise complaints... I figured out that there was a limiter in the rig between the PAS crossover and the amp inputs.  It was a long set.  OH, and this was in 1989.

I suspect that long term (and particularly outdoors on the Relay gigs) you will be disappointed with the PAS subs.  They weren't spectacular in 1985 and are much less so these days.  OTOH, if they have enough oomph (Highly Technical Term Alert) when they aren't self-destructing, they might be perfect for your band.

Have fun, good luck.

Tim Mc

Tim Mc,
Thanks for your input I have reprogrammed the drpa to the specs you guys have set. I have almost eliminated the noise, however, I have mismatched speakers in the cabinets. Each sub has two different brands of drivers. I spoke with the guys at PAS today, they suspect the mismatched drivers are part of the problem also and suggested I get the original ones reconed and use them. My question here is, these are 25 year old drivers, surely there is a new driver out, with matching specs to the old pas drivers the subs came with? I have sent this question to Steve at PAS and waiting a response.
And, on another similar note, I have been reading through the LAB project thread, I happen to have a complete woodworking shop, and quite capable of building anything, what would it do for my bottom to add a pair of the LABs to what I have, once I get them working proper of course.

Thanks again to you guys for your vast knowledge in this.

[Tim McCulloch]

Tim Mc,
Thanks for your input I have reprogrammed the drpa to the specs you guys have set. I have almost eliminated the noise, however, I have mismatched speakers in the cabinets. Each sub has two different brands of drivers. I spoke with the guys at PAS today, they suspect the mismatched drivers are part of the problem also and suggested I get the original ones reconed and use them. My question here is, these are 25 year old drivers, surely there is a new driver out, with matching specs to the old pas drivers the subs came with? I have sent this question to Steve at PAS and waiting a response.
And, on another similar note, I have been reading through the LAB project thread, I happen to have a complete woodworking shop, and quite capable of building anything, what would it do for my bottom to add a pair of the LABs to what I have, once I get them working proper of course.

Thanks again to you guys for your vast knowledge in this.

I'd recone the originals and try to find OEM replacements for the substituted shit that was installed by a previous owner.  Then I'd sell them to someone who really wants PAS subs.

Not to pick on you, but you probably don't have the measurement tools or chops to integrate different subs into a single system in the same pass band.  Use only 1 model of sub cabinet.

LABsubs are big, 45" square by 22.5" deep and weigh ~250#.  While acceptable in singles, they work best in groups of 2, 3 or 4 boxes.  That's a considerable amount of weight, size and truck space.  Even a single unit per side will be bigger than most bars or clubs can accommodate.  It will cost you between $800-$1200 each, depending on wood choice (market price of the day), adhesives, finish and hardware options.  At the upper end of that range you can buy JBL SRX728s on close out for just a bit more.  The difference between them and the PAS (even with all the right drivers) is not trivial.

Good luck, whatever you decide on.

Tim Mc

[Greg g. Pierce]

I'd recone the originals and try to find OEM replacements for the substituted shit that was installed by a previous owner.  Then I'd sell them to someone who really wants PAS subs.

Not to pick on you, but you probably don't have the measurement tools or chops to integrate different subs into a single system in the same pass band.  Use only 1 model of sub cabinet.

LABsubs are big, 45" square by 22.5" deep and weigh ~250#.  While acceptable in singles, they work best in groups of 2, 3 or 4 boxes.  That's a considerable amount of weight, size and truck space.  Even a single unit per side will be bigger than most bars or clubs can accommodate.  It will cost you between $800-$1200 each, depending on wood choice (market price of the day), adhesives, finish and hardware options.  At the upper end of that range you can buy JBL SRX728s on close out for just a bit more.  The difference between them and the PAS (even with all the right drivers) is not trivial.

Good luck, whatever you decide on.

Tim Mc

Thanks Tim, feel free to pick. I'm trying to catch up on the technology and equipment. I played 20 years ago, and was on top of all the equipment. I kind of went to sleep music wise, didn't play for 18 years, had cancer three times, then got back into it. Man things change in 29 years. It does seem it would be much easier to just buy another set of cabinets.

With all the tweaking I've done on the DRPA I have the system sounding much different. I really can't believe how different, especially on the high's it was set at over 6K.

[Sndguy (Joel Ashcraft)]

Greg,
 Also, the mid hi boxes are supposed to have PAS 15, and Renkus Heinz 3301 2" drivers.
We ran ours three way,back in the day with Rane AC 23 crossovers. That rig made a bunch of noise, and as others had stated, the subs leave a bit to be desired.  We powered it with Crown mt and ma amps.
Our decision to upgrade the subs made a Huge improvement, and following that, we replaced all the 15"s with JBLs.   After that, the rig stomped, and sounded very good.  We did a lot of shows with that, and my buddy Bill had those cabs for a lot longer than he and I worked together. He ended up buying EV QRX boxes after the usable life in the PAS rig was expired.

Let me know If you need more info.

Joel

Thanks Tim, feel free to pick. I'm trying to catch up on the technology and equipment. I played 20 years ago, and was on top of all the equipment. I kind of went to sleep music wise, didn't play for 18 years, had cancer three times, then got back into it. Man things change in 29 years. It does seem it would be much easier to just buy another set of cabinets.

With all the tweaking I've done on the DRPA I have the system sounding much different. I really can't believe how different, especially on the high's it was set at over 6K.

[Tim McCulloch]

Thanks Tim, feel free to pick. I'm trying to catch up on the technology and equipment. I played 20 years ago, and was on top of all the equipment. I kind of went to sleep music wise, didn't play for 18 years, had cancer three times, then got back into it. Man things change in 29 years. It does seem it would be much easier to just buy another set of cabinets.

With all the tweaking I've done on the DRPA I have the system sounding much different. I really can't believe how different, especially on the high's it was set at over 6K.

Thanks for the update.  I can see why you're doing the Relay gig; congratulations on beating the Big C, 3 times over.

You're right, things have changed a lot over the last 18 years.  I think now is a better time, artistically and technically, to be in audio than almost any time since Edison.

Have fun, good luck.

Tim Mc

p.s. Just read Joel's reply... I agree that the best original section of this PAS series was the HF driver & horn.

[John Chiara]

Thanks Tim, feel free to pick. I'm trying to catch up on the technology and equipment. I played 20 years ago, and was on top of all the equipment. I kind of went to sleep music wise, didn't play for 18 years, had cancer three times, then got back into it. Man things change in 29 years. It does seem it would be much easier to just buy another set of cabinets.

With all the tweaking I've done on the DRPA I have the system sounding much different. I really can't believe how different, especially on the high's it was set at over 6K.

I use newer PAS. 2x18 Cabs...CB2's...and again I will submit, the magic bullet is a Waves Maxxbass. I have done shows where I have been amazed at the results. Danley low end is my favorite and the 4 PAS cabs with the Maxxbass doesn't bum me out ...and I can run 4 subs..4 mid boxes and 4 tops on one 20A.

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