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Author Topic: Please critique my install plan for small sports bar.  (Read 7432 times)

Loren Aguey

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Please critique my install plan for small sports bar.
« on: January 19, 2012, 11:38:27 pm »

This is of course is a low budget install, hence why they don't just hire a company. But the manager is a really nice guy and there's a lot of room for improvement. And given the sorry state of the current setup, even the smallest of budgets can still make a very noticeable improvement.

This bar currently has a yamaha stagepas 300 system. Which is a small powered mixer with two small-ish cabinets. One on the floor :o of one side of the bar and the other sitting on the bar on the other side.

There are also 6-8 satellite speakers (couldn't tell make or model but, small and cheap looking) distributed around the room that were all hooked up to some ancient home theater receiver. The receiver is toast (surprise surprise) and is the second one to die on them thus far.

The GM wants the following:

1) Louder-Current system is over powered by a full bar and during games its a lost cause. They don't even have tv audio hooked up to the powered mixer and have been relying on the TV speakers all being cranked.
2) Control of DirectTV signal from bar and DJ booth (so DJ can spin during commercials and have control over everything to fade in and out of game audio). Bar control for when there is no DJ present.
3) Individual volume control of two zones-One bar zone, and one back area with tables and could be a makeshift small dancefloor.
4) Simple control of 3 audio sources. Audio sources are: DirectTV, DJ, and an ipod/laptop hookup behind the bar so bartenders can run music during the day.

That sums up the current situation and the main goals of the upgrade.

I want to scrap everything they currently have. Maybe they can get 100 bucks selling the yammie system but regardless I want nothing to do with it.

After some research my current #1 choice of speaker for distribution across the whole bar is the QSC AD-S52.

http://www.qscaudio.com/products/speakers/acoustic_design/ad_s52/ads52.htm

Its a 5.25" woofer and a 1" tweeter. 90 x 90 dispersion. I would like 4 mounted equidistant across the entire length of the bar (Zone 1). There are 3 TV's and there would be one on both sides of each. I would like another 4, 1 in each corner of the table/dancefloor area next to the bar (Zone 2). The bar owns a powered sub that I would like to have live somewhere in or near the DJ booth that's being built.

I would like this all powered by a Crown XTI 1002. 1 zone (4 speakers @ 8 ohms each) per channel, presenting a 2 ohm load to each channel. Each speaker is rated for 120 watts RMS and would get 175 watts (limited appropriately with amp DSP) with this setup.

For the main mixer the Yamaha MG102C would work just fine. http://www.amazon.com/Yamaha-MG102C-Input-Stereo-Mixer/dp/B000Z7C9T8

The powered yammie mixer is now being used as the dj mixer, so I'd replace that with something like this.

http://www.amazon.com/Numark-M6USB-Channel-Table-Bundle/dp/B004Z7EEII

With my mickey mouse job on MS Paint below you can get a basic idea of rough room dimensions and speaker distribution. I'm open to any comments/critiques.

Also, I could use another opinion(s) on the mounting of the speakers behind the bar. The GM said he's happy to let me use the top shelf of the liquor display seen in the pic. I'd really like to get them higher but I can't go above the shelves because they have that little ticker display thing going on which I obviously can't drill into. I guess the ceiling is an option too but he seemed to prefer using the top shelf. Does anyone think that's too low and I should try the ceiling? All things considered I think either way would cover the whole space from bar to the opposite wall. Hiding the wiring would also be a lot easier on the shelf, drilling into the hollow shelves behind it and running them down.

To address GM wish #2 I would split the direct TV signal, one into the DJ mixer and one in the main mixer. During games when DJ is working, nothing but the DJ channels are up on the main mixer and he controls everything.

Oh, and I want the whole system in mono. Unfortunately that mixer doesn't have a mono output, and I couldn't find any small ones like that that do. I don't want to sum with a y-cable lest the guys from Rane show up at my door to beat me down for my insolence. But I can't find a simple mono summing box either. Thoughts on that?

Thanks in advance for any thoughts.



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Brad Weber

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Re: Please critique my install plan for small sports bar.
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2012, 07:44:56 am »

2) Control of DirectTV signal from bar and DJ booth (so DJ can spin during commercials and have control over everything to fade in and out of game audio). Bar control for when there is no DJ present.
You might want to check their DirecTV contract.  The agreements are often based on the potential audience for commercials and may require they have the audio and video for commercials.

You might want to think about some of the overall issues.  What control of the sources is needed?  What are the bartenders comfortable with?  How are they handling the video side (changing channels, do all displays get the same signal, might there be video associated with a DJ, etc.) and what control of the DirecTV or even control of the displays is desired?

As far as mono, if you panned everything on the Yamaha hard left or hard right isn't that effectively giving you a mono output?  But if you want something simple to sum stereo to mono this, http://www.rdlnet.com/product.php?page=87, is about as simple as it gets.  However, my initial thought on the audio was of something more like this, http://www.dbxpro.com/640/index.php with ZC remotes at the bar and DJ for source select and volume, either overall or per zone rather than something the the MG102C.  I might also think 70V distribution, at least for the bar area, that way they can add or delete speakers.  I'm also not clear how the one powered sub would fit in, how you'd high pass the 'mains' in that area but run full range in the bar, etc.
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Loren Aguey

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Re: Please critique my install plan for small sports bar.
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2012, 01:30:12 pm »

You might want to check their DirecTV contract.  The agreements are often based on the potential audience for commercials and may require they have the audio and video for commercials.

You might want to think about some of the overall issues.  What control of the sources is needed?  What are the bartenders comfortable with?  How are they handling the video side (changing channels, do all displays get the same signal, might there be video associated with a DJ, etc.) and what control of the DirecTV or even control of the displays is desired?

As far as mono, if you panned everything on the Yamaha hard left or hard right isn't that effectively giving you a mono output?  But if you want something simple to sum stereo to mono this, http://www.rdlnet.com/product.php?page=87, is about as simple as it gets.  However, my initial thought on the audio was of something more like this, http://www.dbxpro.com/640/index.php with ZC remotes at the bar and DJ for source select and volume, either overall or per zone rather than something the the MG102C.  I might also think 70V distribution, at least for the bar area, that way they can add or delete speakers.  I'm also not clear how the one powered sub would fit in, how you'd high pass the 'mains' in that area but run full range in the bar, etc.

Thanks for the response Brad.

Interesting point about the DirectTV contract. I will certainly bring that to the attention of management.

I asked about video switching aspect of everything and they said for the time being they just want to address the audio portion of it. I believe there is 2-3 directTV boxes and they told me whenever there is a game important enough to have TV audio through the system, all 3 displays will show the same source which they control from the DirectTV boxes behind the bar. They showed little interest in any sort of matrix switcher or anything. With only three TV's they can handle things pretty easily.

They don't have a DVD player or laptop hookup or anything and if they wanted to have that option to show it on all the TV's they'd need to get a switcher but like I said they really just want to address audio right now.

Panning everything on the mixer, I guess somehow the simplest solution is the one that escapes me. Either way thanks for the link on the RDL unit that's perfect and at a very reasonable price.

I'd love to put something like the zone pro in there. I've also had great luck installing the symmetrix zonemix 760 for similar situations. Unfortunately everything falls back on the budget, and that would eat up too much of it and not leave enough for speakers/amps. I was planning on using the monitor output of the mixer for the bar side, and master output for the dance floor side. Will those and the 3 inputs clearly labelled with a label maker, I think it'd be simple enough for staff to handle volume for everything. The GM said that solution would be perfect for him.

To integrate the sub, I was thinking to split off the dance floor output of the main mixer and hi pass the QSC's on that side via the the Crown DSP. Or I could just use the link output from the amp to feed the sub assuming its pre-DSP. This way the balance of sub and main speakers remains as volume fluctuates from any source.

I had thought about 70v but then I came to the conclusion that only 8 speakers doesn't really justify going that route. However leaving the option to add more later with minimal hassle certainly isn't a bad idea. I will take that into consideration.

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John Roberts {JR}

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Re: Please critique my install plan for small sports bar.
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2012, 01:45:42 pm »

I don't have much hands on install experience, more of a hardware design perspective.

70v may ultimately be cheaper if you decide to go for more, lower power speakers to spread out the sound and better manage it for different zones.

Check about alarm requirements, sometimes the alarms need to feed or override the PA.

JR
 
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duane massey

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Re: Please critique my install plan for small sports bar.
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2012, 03:02:02 am »

If the bar has a high ambient noise level I am skeptical that the speakers you are considering will be up to the task. Great speakers for lower background music applications, but really don't do well in a louder environment (especially since you mentioned the dreaded "DJ" word).
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Duane Massey
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Please critique my install plan for small sports bar.
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2012, 10:09:05 am »

A couple of fquick thoughts/comments.
1: Don't plan on the 90x90 coverage.  WIth a horn as small as that one-it will only be 90 above around 4Khz.

Below that-different.  But generally wide by wide.

2: With the XTI amps-the smallest limiter is -3dB-  so that thakes the normal700 w/channel (2 ohm) and puts it at 350 watts.  now divide that by 4 and you have 87 watts.  Not exactly your intended power.

3: I would NOT use a mixer that has any sort of tone-mute or other "complicated" adjustements (for the bartenders).

You need a SIMPLE selection (think an interlock type switch so that only one source at a time can be selected) and volume control.

You are going to need more output for any sort of "dance/DJ" situation.

With the 4 speakers in the cormers of the room-that may be fine for music, but for understanding speech (game announcers) that is going to cause all sorts of interactions -different time arrivals) and lower the intelligability.
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Loren Aguey

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Re: Please critique my install plan for small sports bar.
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2012, 01:16:11 pm »

Thanks for the response guys.

Duane have you installed these speakers before? The responses have let me to re-think the dance floor area but the bar I feel 4 of these should be enough.

I'm thinking of a couple different options for the dancefloor area. To be clear however, at the end of the day this is still just a sports bar and dance club levels were never the goal. The "dance floor" is an area slightly devoid of tables.

That being said it seems I still could benefit from something more in that area. I'm thinking of going 70v and putting 6 total in the back area, 3 on each wall.

Or I could use the higher output version of the AD-S82H. It has an 8 inch driver but then of course once I do that I start running out of budget so at the end of the day they will get what they are willing to pay for.

Ivan:

The new generation of the XTI's, XTI2 has done away with the 3dB increments and have an adjustable threshold on the limiters.

I definitely hear 'ya about the mixer. I will say though that I've done work in a sports bar in Vancouver where they had a bigger mackie mixer and more sources and at that place it was fine. Waitresses would come up and control the Extron video switcher too which struck me as surprising at the time. I will look for something with simple switching and volume control.

As earlier stated I'm re-thinking the dance floor area.
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duane massey

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Re: Please critique my install plan for small sports bar.
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2012, 08:16:56 pm »

Yes, I have used (and replaced) them, but never suggested them. They are really only suitable for quiet restaurant-type environments. Sports bars can be very noisy, and quite raucous at times, and anything with a 6"woofer will be stressed pretty quickly (IMHO).
If "pretty" is not an issue, consider a conventional 2-way box w/ a 12" woofer+horn. Yamaha C112VA), JBL (JRX12i), Community, etc all have decent boxes that have hang points and will get reasonably loud. Not a perfect choice, to be sure, but on a budget that's really thin you have to settle for durable over ideal.
Put in 4 boxes and a QSC GX-5 + mixer/processing of your choice and it will probably get the job done.
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Duane Massey
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Jay Bozich

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Re: Please critique my install plan for small sports bar.
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2012, 05:40:45 pm »

Those speakers will probably get blown as soon as the DJ starts up and the crowd "go's crazy".
So small.
Also as myself being a DJ as well as an Audio Engineer, I can bet that DJ mixer will most likely get unhooked and replaced by a more desirable one the DJ brings in.
Unless they always plan on having ipod DJ's or something, being a sports bar I'd think they'd bring in a real hip hop DJ or something.
Anything smaller than an 8" woofer's gonna crap out, I've seen it time and time again.
Even in restaurants where they intend it to only be mellow background music, but don't think about
prep time or after hours when everyone wants to rock out and blast their tunes.

If it really gets loud in there, you should check it out for yourself, you may want to consider something a little 'uglier' but bigger like, the powered QSC cabinets, KW series are really nice looking and sounding, come in 8, 10, and 12" versions.

As for dividing up the TV feed to DJ vs Bar why not just have it go to the DJ mixer all the time?
All the bartenders have to do is turn up the channel, switch it to "DJ" then they can adjust with whatever you have at the bar. I guess it depends on how much either the DJ setup is going to be used versus the playback of game audio.
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Jay Bozich

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Re: Please critique my install plan for small sports bar.
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2012, 06:06:39 pm »

Just saw this device on an older thread.
Very simple, all RCA.

http://www.rdlnet.com/product.php?page=543
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Bill Hornibrook

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Re: Please critique my install plan for small sports bar.
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2012, 11:41:23 am »

I hope you haven't gone ahead with this system. None of it is right.

For sports bars you do not want a sound system that delivers natural vocal reproduction. Everyone in there is yelling, cheering, talking loudly - and those speakers are right in the same frequency range as the crowd. The best speakers for sports bars deliver that unnatural chesty sound that you might want to avoid in other situations.

You really need to get out and experience the top four or five sports bars in your area.

Don't get a DJ mixer. They bring their own. And don't even think about putting those little speakers in the DJ area.

It sounds like you have a budget of around $2000. You may have to get creative and pick up a few things used, but even new you can put something together better than this (which isn't even useable IMO).
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Loren Aguey

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Re: Please critique my install plan for small sports bar.
« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2012, 01:09:22 pm »

I hope you haven't gone ahead with this system. None of it is right.

For sports bars you do not want a sound system that delivers natural vocal reproduction. Everyone in there is yelling, cheering, talking loudly - and those speakers are right in the same frequency range as the crowd. The best speakers for sports bars deliver that unnatural chesty sound that you might want to avoid in other situations.

You really need to get out and experience the top four or five sports bars in your area.

Don't get a DJ mixer. They bring their own. And don't even think about putting those little speakers in the DJ area.

It sounds like you have a budget of around $2000. You may have to get creative and pick up a few things used, but even new you can put something together better than this (which isn't even useable IMO).

Thanks for the insight guys. This install fell through because as it turns out, ANY amount of money was too much for them to spend right now.  So they wasted my time and the time of anyone who took the time to give me advice on it.

But had I gone through with it I would have heeded the advice and chosen different speakers.

As for the DJ mixer, at this place there's only one DJ and he doesn't bring his own. He uses the little powered mixer as a half ass DJ mixer. Its a rinky dink setup all around so adding the cheap Numark was basically doing him a small favor. Its a small sports bar and not the type that brings in guest DJ's as performers, nor could they reasonably accommodate one if they wanted to.

And Jay the reason I would have wanted to split the TV signal is because the DJ is not there all the time. So during the day the mixer that's behind the bar is accessible for level adjustments where the DJ mixer is not.

And if anyone is wondering how on earth I decided on those speakers (which it appears you are), I was researching sports bar installs and came across this.

http://avspecialists.com/some-of-the-jobs-weve-done/item/53-sound-and-video-system-installation-%7C-restaurants-sports-bars-and-night-clubs.html

In that install they used the AD-s82 which is the 8" version. After reseraching the speaker it seemed like a good fit. But seeing as how that place is WAY bigger than this bar and has considerably higher ceilings, I though I could have gotten away with the AD-S52 and spared the owners some cash, but apparently not.
Live and learn.

Thanks anyways for the help it was still a learning experience none the less and may help someone else down the road.
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Bill Hornibrook

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Re: Please critique my install plan for small sports bar.
« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2012, 01:18:50 pm »

Quote
This install fell through because as it turns out, ANY amount of money was too much for them to spend right now.  So they wasted my time and the time of anyone who took the time to give me advice on it.

That's a shame because you obviously put a lot of time into this. But that looks to be a very small bar, and I know how tight margins are even in places much larger. So it's understandable to a degree, but still....
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Hal Bissinger/COMSYSTEC

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Re: Please critique my install plan for small sports bar.
« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2012, 05:28:29 pm »

And if anyone is wondering how on earth I decided on those speakers (which it appears you are), I was researching sports bar installs and came across this.

http://avspecialists.com/some-of-the-jobs-weve-done/item/53-sound-and-video-system-installation-%7C-restaurants-sports-bars-and-night-clubs.html

In that install they used the AD-s82 which is the 8" version. After reseraching the speaker it seemed like a good fit. But seeing as how that place is WAY bigger than this bar and has considerably higher ceilings, I though I could have gotten away with the AD-S52 and spared the owners some cash, but apparently not.
Live and learn.

Smaller venues do not equate to smaller speakers. Less of them perhaps but not smaller given the same level of performance.
 
-Hal
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Loren Aguey

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Re: Please critique my install plan for small sports bar.
« Reply #14 on: February 13, 2012, 05:54:04 pm »


Smaller venues do not equate to smaller speakers. Less of them perhaps but not smaller given the same level of performance.
 
-Hal

I understand that. I wouldn't even call this place a venue its a tiny little sports bar.

It was an issue of me thinking that I could get away with using speakers with a little less output than the ones being used in that big open room because of a much smaller coverage area, and being much closer to peoples ears.
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Brad Weber

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Re: Please critique my install plan for small sports bar.
« Reply #15 on: February 21, 2012, 11:58:04 am »

I understand that. I wouldn't even call this place a venue its a tiny little sports bar.

It was an issue of me thinking that I could get away with using speakers with a little less output than the ones being used in that big open room because of a much smaller coverage area, and being much closer to peoples ears.
And that might have been possible, it comes down to their either adjusting their budget or their expectations to match what is reasonable to achieve.  It sounds like their expectations must have been met by having nothing.
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