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Author Topic: opinions and thoughts on how you would do this  (Read 8749 times)

Joe Long

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opinions and thoughts on how you would do this
« on: January 01, 2012, 02:00:07 pm »

Ive been asked to consult on a project for another local church here in town...seems to be my calling.

Basically just wanted to get your guys/gals' opinions on how you would set this up or go about doing so

I like getting ideas, and other views, ups and downs and other peoples experiences that way i can be open minded about it.

looking for professional way, then high and low cost of possible doing it...

scenario:
they have video cameras for their video feed and they want to run out to their coffee shop they just newly built..its big. they have 4 tvs out there that need the video feed..

also they have kinda a central hub located at the help desk with a dvd player and mp3 connections so they can play music/dvds to the tvs...

SO, i figured id start from scratch and just start new with things..however I wanted to get some ideas on a  "dollar cheap" and then a "higher end" way of doing it, along with a professional way of doing so...how an actual installer would do it..

feel free to ask questions regarding it..i;ll be posting with more ideas...



edit:currently i was thinking cat 5 runs with receivers at each tv...yea? (HDMI)

cause dont forget the signal wont be as good as the source unless the source is good.
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TonyWilliams

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opinions and thoughts on how you would do this
« Reply #1 on: January 01, 2012, 07:21:21 pm »

Some information that would help us help you:
1. The distance between location the camera feed is coming from to the tv location.
2. Is there some sort of switcher switching these cameras? What format is the output of this switcher? Is there an extra output from the switcher to be used for the TV feed?
3. How do you plan on people choosing either the DVD player or video feed? If you feed each tv a video feed and DVD player feed, then you can independently choose which tvs show which input.
4. Do the tvs have a HDMI or PC input available?


- Tony Williams
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Brad Weber

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Re: opinions and thoughts on how you would do this
« Reply #2 on: January 01, 2012, 11:56:14 pm »

Ive been asked to consult on a project for another local church here in town...seems to be my calling.
Is this consult as in asked to offer any insights for free or consult as in your providing professional services?  Not only is there a lot of missing information that might be critical to the situations such as what infrastructure exists, what signal types are involved or possible for the sources and destinations, who will be installing it and what their (and your) expertise and resources are, but it also seems a bit like you're essentially asking others to do the consulting.  Do you have any specific questions?
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Joe Long

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Re: opinions and thoughts on how you would do this
« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2012, 01:29:56 am »

we'll see how much of a response i'll get, not much action on this forum

Alright so initially i was just asked about all this, and went in blind.

Today I went to the church and jumped in. Everything was a mess and not labeled ect...
 (picture attached) is what im at right now

my only run in, is that im unfamiliar with the networking side of it, patches, ports, bays, switches...ya know ha

As i was re running alot of the cables down there and figuring out what does what and where the signal comes and goes from, I got them all labeled.

SO, heres the issue at hand, We want to run... our Live service feed, DVD, and computer feed (looping slides, ect) all into the 4 seperate TVs in the coffee house/foyer/entrance.

then be able to "switch" between those...this branches off into 2 separate things
A. switch it at one point where its at now in a cabinet. (same thing on all tvs)
B. be able to switch inputs or channels on tv for individual feeds on each tv...

(make sense?)

CURRENT SETUP:
refer to picture...
feeds are currently fed into a switcher...(i'll edit later with product details)
that switcher is fed OUT to a "intelix" balun via RCA
then the balun is fed CAT5 into an "intelix" distribution amp
which is then cat 5'd to all the tvs
all tvs have those "intelix" baluns at each end with RCA hookups
heres the exact one

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?is=REG&sku=527490&Q=&O=&A=details

video and audio ran to each tv via those

PROBLEMS WITH CURRENT SET UP

blurriness
like the video is being pulled apart
colors are off
its just a nasty picture...

TROUBLESHOOTED ALREADY

first i took the switcher out of the situation, same result
second, direct fed it to the balun without the distribution amp and switcher..same result
third, took 2 baluns and went to a different room and set it up as i would normally, 1 tv on one end and dvd player on the other using the balun via cat 5, Same result...

so safe to say its the baluns?
switched dvd players also, and tried different video feed...same picture all around when using baluns...

SO, what im getting at is ways of doing it...im going with replacing the baluns with HDMI transmitters and receivers...ive done this before with another project where it was just one projector..and works great!
http://www.magenta-research.com/products/hd-one-dx-series
thats what ive used before..and am thinking of...for each tv?

whew...i'll be checking this often for replies...thoughts and suggestions, comments..have at it..THanks for the read.

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Brad Weber

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Re: opinions and thoughts on how you would do this
« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2012, 09:24:03 am »

we'll see how much of a response i'll get, not much action on this forum
That works both ways and I think people may have been, and still are, waiting for you to respond to some of the questions already asked.

CURRENT SETUP:
refer to picture...
feeds are currently fed into a switcher...(i'll edit later with product details)
that switcher is fed OUT to a "intelix" balun via RCA
then the balun is fed CAT5 into an "intelix" distribution amp
which is then cat 5'd to all the tvs
all tvs have those "intelix" baluns at each end with RCA hookups
heres the exact one

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?is=REG&sku=527490&Q=&O=&A=details

video and audio ran to each tv via those

PROBLEMS WITH CURRENT SET UP

blurriness
like the video is being pulled apart
colors are off
its just a nasty picture...
So they are apparently:
  • Somehow getting all sources into composite video and then using some undefined switcher switch between them.
  • Apparently using some kind of adapter to get the composite video signal into an S-Video UTP balun.
  • Using a D-Link network switch to send the one UTP transmitter to four receivers.
I'm not at all surprised that they are getting a poor picture, in fact I'm more surprised they are getting any picture.  The problems are rather obvious and that along with your comment regarding not understanding the network side of this suggests that you may have rather limited knowledge of and experience with such systems, and perhaps with installed systems in general.  That could also be relevant where you mention HDMI and wanting to be able to route signals as that can involve numerous technical challenges in aspects such as properly addressing EDID and HDCP.

As far as what to do, maybe you can start by defining the goals in simple terms.  Is what is wanted selecting one source to to be displayed everywhere or is it selecting the source for each display independently?  Or will that be determined based on the associated cost and complexity?  This is an important determination to make, especially if you are looking at an HDMI solution.

From that you get into factors such as:
  • who will be operating the system and how they see it operating?
  • What are the actual sources and displays (specific product models, not just in general)?
  • What distances are involved, what related infrastructure is in place and what cabling already exists?
  • Who will be installing the work and what are their relevant experience and resources?
  • Is there a budget?
In all seriousness, you might want to think whether the best way to serve this church and yourself may be to suggest that they hire someone already familiar with such systems and then you hang around and try to learn from them.
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Arnold B. Krueger

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Re: opinions and thoughts on how you would do this
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2012, 04:16:49 pm »


PROBLEMS WITH CURRENT SET UP

blurriness
like the video is being pulled apart
colors are off
its just a nasty picture...

TROUBLESHOT ALREADY:

first i took the switcher out of the situation, same result
second, direct fed it to the balun without the distribution amp and switcher..same result
third, took 2 baluns and went to a different room and set it up as i would normally, 1 tv on one end and dvd player on the other using the balun via cat 5, Same result...

so safe to say its the baluns?
switched dvd players also, and tried different video feed...same picture all around when using baluns...


Sounds like you don't like driving HD TVs with a SD picture.

Quote
SO, what im getting at is ways of doing it...im going with replacing the baluns with HDMI transmitters and receivers...ive done this before with another project where it was just one projector..and works great!
http://www.magenta-research.com/products/hd-one-dx-series
thats what ive used before..and am thinking of...for each tv?

Seems like you'll also need some kind of HDMI splitter.
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Joe Long

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Re: opinions and thoughts on how you would do this
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2012, 05:44:26 pm »

Appreciate the already comments, with all do respect, I got just the response I figured I'd get and went ahead and did the research myself...
I'm a quick learner and learn from trial and error
They hired me because they know my work and I may not seem like I know much, I go out and study, research, and read until I know the answer.

So, As Brad was saying,

"""As far as what to do, maybe you can start by defining the goals in simple terms.  Is what is wanted selecting one source to to be displayed everywhere or is it selecting the source for each display independently?  Or will that be determined based on the associated cost and complexity?  This is an important determination to make, especially if you are looking at an HDMI solution."""

I'm wanting to get all my signals into this
Kramer VP-725xla
http://www.kramerelectronics.com/products/model.asp?pid=1734

and get them out to 2 LCD tvs with either HDMI, RGB, COMPOSITE, inputs
Also I want to be able to have a live feed going on one tv while having a DVD playing on the other tv. VIA one output..possible?
Im aware that this Scaler/Switcher will do the job. Correct?

I know when you guys see HDMI you freak out, I understand why, just tell me no. I get it, its digital and cost money. We'll skip over HDMI, however, this scaler can scale out to a few signals HDMI being one of them, so I want to be able to take advantage of that.

I was thinking 1 receiver on each tv possibly an HDMI one
http://www.kramerelectronics.com/products/model.asp?pid=1355

I just get confused on sending it out via one output on the scaler while being able to have one signal on tv 1 and the other signal on tv2 via one cable run (cat5e) to each tv
is this where a compatible distribution amp comes into play?
or just a correct multi-port transmitter?

Thanks again for the help...
feel free to reply with any holes or questions or oddities
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Lee Buckalew

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Re: opinions and thoughts on how you would do this
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2012, 11:09:22 pm »


I'm wanting to get all my signals into this
Kramer VP-725xla
http://www.kramerelectronics.com/products/model.asp?pid=1734

and get them out to 2 LCD tvs with either HDMI, RGB, COMPOSITE, inputs
Also I want to be able to have a live feed going on one tv while having a DVD playing on the other tv. VIA one output..possible?
Im aware that this Scaler/Switcher will do the job. Correct?


I was thinking 1 receiver on each tv possibly an HDMI one
http://www.kramerelectronics.com/products/model.asp?pid=1355

I just get confused on sending it out via one output on the scaler while being able to have one signal on tv 1 and the other signal on tv2 via one cable run (cat5e) to each tv
is this where a compatible distribution amp comes into play?
or just a correct multi-port transmitter?

Thanks again for the help...
feel free to reply with any holes or questions or oddities

The switcher that you are referencing is discontinued so unless you already have it I'd consider something else. 
No, you can not, with the components you are considering, send one output from the switcher/scaler and feed two different signals to two TV's.
The Switcher/scaler that you are looking at can only switch between like inputs for each native source to independent native outputs.  The scaled output is a single output selected from any single source.

Lee
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Brad Weber

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Re: opinions and thoughts on how you would do this
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2012, 02:59:32 pm »

I know when you guys see HDMI you freak out, I understand why, just tell me no. I get it, its digital and cost money. We'll skip over HDMI, however, this scaler can scale out to a few signals HDMI being one of them, so I want to be able to take advantage of that.

I was thinking 1 receiver on each tv possibly an HDMI one
http://www.kramerelectronics.com/products/model.asp?pid=1355

I just get confused on sending it out via one output on the scaler while being able to have one signal on tv 1 and the other signal on tv2 via one cable run (cat5e) to each tv
is this where a compatible distribution amp comes into play?
or just a correct multi-port transmitter?

Thanks again for the help...
feel free to reply with any holes or questions or oddities
Neither, if you want to have two potentially different sources being displayed then you need two different outputs.  There are generally two ways to do this, one is to split or DA all of the sources to a dedicated switcher for each destination, so everything sent to one switcher for display #1 and everything also sent to a second switcher for display #2.  The other is to use a crosspoint matrix router where you have multiple inputs and outputs and you select the input routed to each output.  That is a much cleaner option.

However things can get more complex if you want to address multiple signal formats for the inputs and/or outputs.  It is one thing to route composite video to composite video or component video to component video and quite another to be able to route composite or component video to composite or component video.  You either have to convert each source to one common format and then maybe convert the outputs back out of that and into the format they need or you need to use a switcher or router that provides the conversions.

HDMI causes people concern because it can be very complex to deal with and add another level of considerations and challenges in these types of applications.  HDMI was developed to make typical consumer connectivity from a source to a display easy.  Put everything (audio, video, control, network, etc.) on one cable and allow the devices to communicate and automatically configure the optimal input and output configurations.  However, when you start dealing with multiple sources and multiple destinations instead of simplifying things it actually causes all sorts of potential problems.  When you have a source to multiple different destination devices, which destination device is communicating with the source and is it creating a condition that will work for all destinations?  What happens if you add or change a destination?  And that's just addressing EDID and not even getting into HDCP, cabling issues and so on.  So when you start wanting multiple inputs of different types routed selectively to multiple destinations via HDMI you get into more complex system design and products.

As Lee noted, the Kramer product you linked is several different 4x1 switchers in one box along with a single scaled output from any one source.  Neither it nor its replacement is apparently going to do what you want.  There are products that will do what you want but the fact that you may not have access to manufacturers like AMX, Crestron and Extron may also limit your options.
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Joe Long

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Re: opinions and thoughts on how you would do this
« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2012, 04:12:09 pm »

Neither, if you want to have two potentially different sources being displayed then you need two different outputs.  There are generally two ways to do this, one is to split or DA all of the sources to a dedicated switcher for each destination, so everything sent to one switcher for display #1 and everything also sent to a second switcher for display #2.  The other is to use a crosspoint matrix router where you have multiple inputs and outputs and you select the input routed to each output.  That is a much cleaner option.

I believe the matrix router is exactly what I was looking for...
I dont need a big scaler/switcher for the little project to be done with, maybe eventually we'll have use for it, but the matrix router is what i'm lookin for.

http://www.kramerelectronics.com/products/model.asp?pid=711&sf=57

hows that one look?

8inputs - youd have transmitted to cat 5 into the router

8 outputs for 8 different tv's/monitors/displays, ect....
correct?

I dont need any scaling right now on any inputs rather than the live feed which we'd want to scale up to a better signal other than rca.

thoughts?

thanks again everyone

EDIT//////

that one i listed above is only compatible with the cobra transmitters/receivers which would put the final number pretty high for 2-4 tvs
(budget being less than or equal to $5,000)

also that one above VS this one?

http://www.kramerelectronics.com/products/model.asp?pid=1871&sf=57

will the vp8x8 work for dvd and live feed signals via a certain source...
dvd you can change to whichever signal i suppose..however the live feed is RCA
« Last Edit: January 17, 2012, 04:33:06 pm by Joe Long »
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