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[g'bye, Dick Rees]

as always Dick hits the nail on the head. This will also keep your costs down and let you grow slowly.


The biggest trick is usually getting everyone to turn down, including the drummer. Search these forums and the archived forums on numerous tricks to get people to turn down.

Thanks, Ned.  Less is often more......

[Scott Bolt]

Hi David,

Thanks for the additional information.

I am still standing by my recommendation for the RCF312's.  To make your choice sound in your own mind on these, I would recommend you find a shop that has them and play music through them (or better, bring a guitar and mic and sing through them) and compare them to some other powered speakers such as the JBL PRX612, EV LiveX ELX112's, Yamaha DSR112's, and QSC K12's.  All of these speakers are twice as expensive, but I think you will find that the RCF's hang with them fairly well ..... especially once you consider that you will NOT be running them full range, but rather over subs.  With that in mind, pay close attention to vocal clarity and warmth. If possible, have them setup over a sub to see how things will really sound in your system.

You can also search around the web on various forums and get others opinions who have the RCF312's.

In response to specific questions, we use SM-58s.  We have DI for keys and bass amp only. We don't have monitors unless we pay a sound man.  And I'm not opposed to used at all, but it's a trade off between price, warranty, and availability.  First I have to figure out what I want.[/list]

For the guitar, I would recommend the Sennheiser e609 hung over the amp.  This mic sounds very good in comparison to many other microphones and is by far the easiest to setup .... and takes the least amount of space on stage .... and has the greatest noise rejection and feedback rejection by its design.

Based on my situation, and the feedback here, appears I should focus on the following priorities:

1) Main speakers (leaning toward powered)
2) mixer (might just use old 1604 for a while, which bumps this down)
3) monitors (probably 2 to get started)
4) subs (to allow us to run all through PA)

Definitely use the 1604, it will do fine for now. 

As for monitors, I completely agree with Ned.  I can't believe I didn't think of this myself.  Just use your passport for monitor duty!

For the sub, if the weight doesn't bother you, a single Yorkville LS801p will be MORE than sufficient for you.  These go for around $1200.00.  If you haven't heard them, it is difficult to explain just how powerful these things are.  The high pass output is also variable on these subs ..... meaning that you can decide how much of the low frequency you want to send up to the tops (although IMHO, this doesn't make that big of a difference to other subs).  These are 137lbs, but then, my folded horns were twice as big and weighed over 140lbs ..... without the amp

People have mentioned FX.  I don't think we know the difference since we never really use any (maybe reverb...)
Is that a "critical component"?

I certainly think so. I would recommend a used TC Electronics reverb rack unit.  You can get these for ~$100-150 used routinely and they are a really good sounding verb for the money.

I really appreciate the specific model recommendations.  I checked out some K12s briefly over the weekend.  I was impressed, but also intrigued by the RCF ART 312a, given the recommendations and the lower price.  Also wondering about 10" versions.  Audio sales guy didn't have a k10 ready to demo, but recommended that with a sub if I was inclined.

Makes me think I should consider a pair of 310a's plus use my old Mackie mixer for now just for vocals, then add monitors, then someday subs when ready to run whole band through PA.

The K10's sound better than the K12's IMHO..... but they are still A $750 ea speaker.  Not the same value as the RCF312 @ $400-450ea!  These speakers were being sold for >$700 each just last year.

If you are in the market for a $700.00 speaker, I would suggest you listen to the Yamaha DSR112 (I use these myself).  They outperformed all the other speakers in this price range to my ears.

Thoughts on that route?   My only concern is buying the RFC's without hearing them first.

From where you are today, the following will be such a HUGE step up that you will be stunned at the difference:

• (2) ART RCF312a speakers (~$800-900 new)
• Use your Mackie 1604 mixer (free)
• Use your current PA as monitors (free)
• Get a used TC Electronics reverb/delay (~$100-150 used)
• Have your guitar player buy a Sennheiser e609 and send it through the PA (not sure why he/she wouldn't be paying the ~$110.00 for this one)
• Keep the bass out of the PA
• Keep the drums out of the PA
• Put the keys DI into the PA
• Add Subs later when you have gotten used to the great new sound you have.

My rationale is as follows:

Keep the low end out of the PA since this is where you will be hitting limit first on the powered speakers.  Enhance both the amount and quality of the vocals.  Spread the directional mid frequency instruments around the audience (guitar and keys).

This rig is such a serious upgrade over your Passport system that it is difficult to impress upon you how much better you are going to sound.

When you are ready to go to the "next level", everything you have will still be used.  Just add microphones for the drums, some gates for the kick and toms, and a sub or two and you will be above the FOH systems of most bands playing in small venues you are targeting.

Good luck and let us know how things work out!

[g'bye, Dick Rees]

Hi David,

Thanks for the additional information.

I am still standing by my recommendation for the RCF312's.  To make your choice sound in your own mind on these, I would recommend you find a shop that has them and play music through them (or better, bring a guitar and mic and sing through them) and compare them to some other powered speakers such as the JBL PRX612, EV LiveX ELX112's, Yamaha DSR112's, and QSC K12's.  All of these speakers are twice as expensive, but I think you will find that the RCF's hang with them fairly well ..... especially once you consider that you will NOT be running them full range, but rather over subs.  With that in mind, pay close attention to vocal clarity and warmth. If possible, have them setup over a sub to see how things will really sound in your system.

You can also search around the web on various forums and get others opinions who have the RCF312's.

You won't have to look far for another opinion.

I have had and have used the RCF's.  They do sound good for the price.  That said, the component quality/durability in the control section is the weak point.  None of the half-dozen  we used for jobbing lasted more than a couple of years before the increasing failure rate in the pots and connectors rendered them less than useful.  Individual parts were not to be had and the entire modules were as expensive as a new speaker......

The reason the other speakers cost half to twice again as much is build quality. 

There is perhaps one other thing to consider when purchasing such units.  What speakers are available from your local rental house (if there is one)?  If you should need to rent a replacement it is always handy to have bought something which is commonly stocked for rentals.  Also, renting before buying allows you to have some real-world experience in how a speaker works for your use.  Some shops will even have an inventory sell-off around this time of the year when rental stock is sold off after a year of use.  This is a good way to get a more robust and pro level cabinet at a bargain price.

Again, the RCF is a very good sounding speaker.  There are other things to consider as well.

Lastly, it is not a given that subs are needed in this particular situation.  An alternative approach has been proposed which obviates the need for subs.    [/list]

Edit:

Another powered speaker to consider would be the EV Sxa100.  Here's a link to a pair for sale:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/PA-Speaker-Set-EV-SXA-100-Powered-Speaker-12-Inch-2-Way-/260921325031?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cc01f75e7#ht_500wt_1202

One of the things that makes these very practical is this:


http://www.ebay.com/itm/EV-SXA100-SXA250-Amp-Module-Repair-Service-/110659390332?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19c3d04b7c

These folks have stepped into the fray to provide great, affordable after-market service and parts.  They have been great to deal with whenever I've had any issues with any of my EV powered speakers.  Having a spare module on hand is very handy......and in this case very affordable.  I'm no EE or experienced repairman, but even I can handle plugging in a new module.

[Scott Bolt]

I have had and have used the RCF's.  They do sound good for the price.  That said, the component quality/durability in the control section is the weak point.  None of the half-dozen  we used for jobbing lasted more than a couple of years before the increasing failure rate in the pots and connectors rendered them less than useful.  Individual parts were not to be had and the entire modules were as expensive as a new speaker......

The reason the other speakers cost half to twice again as much is build quality. 

Perhaps so; however, I suspect that price difference has more to do with the higher SPL capabilities of the speakers I mentioned.

The back of the RCF312 appears to have only a single pot (sensitivity).  Since I purchased my DSR112's, I have not had to adjust the sensitivity since I balanced them over the subs the first time.  I suspect that this would be the case for the OP as well (especially without subs).

Did you have issues with the XLR connectors?  Perhaps you also have the need to change the sensitivity more often since you are using these for jobbing.

Your post appears to say that all 6 of your speakers were rendered useless in under 2 years. ART RCF series speakers have a standard warranty period of 3 years.  If your speakers were having issues after only 2 years, they would still be under warranty wouldn't they?  And were all 6 really broken?  I don't mean to sound disrespectful, but this is seriously the first time I have ever heard owners of RCF speakers complain about the quality (perhaps there are others.  I will look around).

At any rate, I also have no objection to a pair of SxA100's for tops either.  They are a little less powerful speaker than the RCF312, but still have a very smooth vocal reproduction.  Also, the price and link is for a used pair.  So the OP would be getting a used pair of EV's for the same price as a new pair of RCF's..... not exactly apples to apples, but still good speakers.

Lastly, it is not a given that subs are needed in this particular situation.  An alternative approach has been proposed which obviates the need for subs.

I believe that all bands grow quickly to the point of needing subs.  Depending on the type of music being played, the impact may be more subtle; however, I greatly prefer the sound of subs in any band sound reinforcement.

If you are saying that a pair of 15" speakers is a sufficient substitute for 12" speakers over subs, then I am in total disagreement.

Also, renting before buying allows you to have some real-world experience in how a speaker works for your use.

Possibly so; however, it is also money that could have gone toward the price of the speakers

[g'bye, Dick Rees]

If you are saying that a pair of 15" speakers is a sufficient substitute for 12" speakers over subs, then I am in total disagreement.

That's not the point I was making.  I didn't refer to 15" speakers at all.  Must have been someone else.....

The point is that not all bands require subs.  The OP can obviously make do just fine with a vocals only PA.  I played in similar ensembles/circumstances for over 30 years and never used a subwoofer.  And I played stand-up bass.

We also never used monitors and we played for a living.

[Scott Snavely]

That's not the point I was making.  I didn't refer to 15" speakers at all.  Must have been someone else.....

The point is that not all bands require subs.  The OP can obviously make do just fine with a vocals only PA.  I played in similar ensembles/circumstances for over 30 years and never used a subwoofer.  And I played stand-up bass.

We also never used monitors and we played for a living.

Yep.  Here's what I would think about.  Use the mixer you have, get some powered speakers like QSC K12 which are going to be a huge step up from passport.  You can buy a pair of K12's with stands and cables for $1700 and maybe a bit less on ebay.  Maybe get three (one for a monitor).  Just vocals in the PA.  Maybe some keys?    Maybe one K12 for the folks and one side washed for the band. 

You'll need some extension power cables for the K12's that will take a bit of cash.  I've heard on this forum that orange extension cords work great.

[Scott Bolt]

That's not the point I was making.  I didn't refer to 15" speakers at all.  Must have been someone else.....

The point is that not all bands require subs.  The OP can obviously make do just fine with a vocals only PA.  I played in similar ensembles/circumstances for over 30 years and never used a subwoofer.  And I played stand-up bass.

We also never used monitors and we played for a living.

Hi Dick,

Sorry, I misunderstood your point... not bigger mains ..... just no subs .... got it

I am not in total disagreement with you on this.  I feel that the OP's first step should be to upgrade his FOH to a good pair of powered 12" speakers (and get some reverb for the vocals).  I feel that his existing system will provide decent monitoring for now. 

Could you elaborate on your problems with the RCF312's?  I have looked all over and couldn't find a peep about others having any issues with them.  Did you purchase them used and therefore couldn't take advantage of the 3 year warranty ART provides?  Thanks.

David,

Once you have upgraded your tops to powered speakers, IMHO you should rent a powered sub for a night to see if you feel you will want something like this in the future.  I would suggest you gig without a sub first, then try a sub out for a spin to see if you will want that sound in the future.

Yep.  Here's what I would think about.  Use the mixer you have, get some powered speakers like QSC K12 which are going to be a huge step up from passport.  You can buy a pair of K12's with stands and cables for $1700 and maybe a bit less on ebay.  Maybe get three (one for a monitor).  Just vocals in the PA.  Maybe some keys?    Maybe one K12 for the folks and one side washed for the band.

Hey Scott,

No question that K12's would be a huge step up from the passport.

Unfortunately, the K12 usually goes for $850.00 each.  The Yamaha DSR112 is a much better speaker at $750.00 each IMHO.  The JBL PRX612M is also a better speaker at around $800.00 each.  The K12 squishes the bottom and has a harsh mid range to my ear in comparison to the other two.

Moving into this price range of speaker completely changes the discussion.  I have no doubt that any of the above speakers would be a HUGE step up from the passport system.  It is all a matter of budget.

[Samuel Rees]

Where do K12s cost $850? If you buy them at list from Sweetwater maybe!

I don't mean to weigh in on the speaker choice convo. I just wanted to point out that any good dealer will sell these speakers for a good bit less than some of the "list" prices mentioned, and thats worth remembering. I got 2 new KW122s for $1600/pair from Chuck Levin's in Washington DC, but I could not have done the "list" price of $2200. Obviously some of the pros on this thread know this, I just thought I'd mention it though.

[Ned Ward]

Scott -

At this stage, with a minimal PA and in a bar for 75-100 people, micing the guitar amps is usually not needed. I have tried this with our own band, and find that in that small a space, it's easier just to set the stage volume so everyone can hear each other and then have the vocals/keys in the PA. Every time I was trying to run sound while playing, I would end up muting everything except vocals and keys; I think the OP's issue is the same.  Totally get that the longterm goal is to mic everything, but at this level and this size gig it's usually a waste of time.

On mics, I had the 609 and thought it was pretty good... until I tried the 906. Worth saving up the extra dough for that one. I now have 2 and always bring them and our JDI's to all shows we're not providing PA just in case... 

[g'bye, Dick Rees]

Scott -

At this stage, with a minimal PA and in a bar for 75-100 people, micing the guitar amps is usually not needed. I have tried this with our own band, and find that in that small a space, it's easier just to set the stage volume so everyone can hear each other and then have the vocals/keys in the PA. Every time I was trying to run sound while playing, I would end up muting everything except vocals and keys; I think the OP's issue is the same.  Totally get that the longterm goal is to mic everything, but at this level and this size gig it's usually a waste of time.

On mics, I had the 609 and thought it was pretty good... until I tried the 906. Worth saving up the extra dough for that one. I now have 2 and always bring them and our JDI's to all shows we're not providing PA just in case...

+1 on all the above, especially the 906's.  Amazing mic.  And remember.....

The OP states that for their larger gigs they hire someone to do sound.  I'm ASSuming that means he comes with his system as I can't feature hiring someone to run a Passport system...... 

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