Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[g'bye, Dick Rees]

I think the stock answer here is to always spend two or three times your budget when that's not always necessary.

Only if the budget is 1/3 to 1/2 what is really practical for their stated needs (read "desires").

Very often the thing that needs adjustment (along with the random budget figures) is the OP's actual needs vis a vis their expectations.

Edit:

You'll notice that the "used" option was mentioned within the first two responses........

[Steve Kelly]

I agree with Mark.  Good quality used gear will last a small band a long time.  I recommend and usually find used gear for bands when they are starting up.  When they need larger sound for bigger venues, they call me to bring an appropriate rig.

[Ray Aberle]

I agree with Mark.  Good quality used gear will last a small band a long time.  I recommend and usually find used gear for bands when they are starting up.  When they need larger sound for bigger venues, they call me to bring an appropriate rig.

That's a good point, but what Mr. Rees was referring to is when someone comes in and says, "I need a line array to cover 4,000 people, and my budget is $15,000 MAX." They are asking to do something that is pretty much impossible. No, strike that, it *is* impossible (in this example!). From the original poster, he appears to be looking to upgrade substantially, with good quality mains, a sub and a better mixer. His budget may not allow for that-- it's not that the people here are trying to suggest more expensive options, or prefer/suggest new as opposed to used, but to best fill the requirements as originally stated.

If the OP is going to look at used equipment, their options do open up quite a bit.

-Ray

[Scott Bolt]

I don't know if you missed the comments that they have keys and would also like to run everything through the system or if you are saying that it is not feasible to do so, which may be the case with a $1,000 to $1,500 budget.  When you don't run the bass, kick, etc. through the house system, do you still mic them for the monitors?

I didn't miss the comments.  The OP has been going without kick and bass in the PA and IMHO, for the 1.5K he wishes to spend, his best bet is to continue to do so until he has another 1K to spend.  At that time he can have a PA that is able to support a bi-amped system with subs.

That seems to potentially lead to a related issue that if you are currently running everything through dedicated amps and have no monitors then it seems likely that there would be some monitors, DIs, mics, etc. associated with getting the instruments into the PA system and adding monitors.  Has that been accounted for in the budget?

No .... another reason I made my suggestions.  Once all the instruments go through the PA a decent monitoring system is going to be needed.

Just to highlight a point that may easily be overlooked, some of the suggestions are for two main speakers while Ned recommended just one.  Think about the venues you play in and what you are trying to do, a single higher quality speaker may be better than less expensive left and right speakers.  At the same time, you might want to consider the impact on stereo key patches, stereo effects and so forth.  This is an example of where there can be multiple 'right' answers you have to decide which is right for you.

Most venues I have played would be better served with 2 tops to cover the bar.  The ART RCF312 speakers are of the same quality of sound as any of the current great sounding new powered speakers, it only lacks the power of the new speakers.  This should be no problem at all since 2 of these speakers will easily handle a room of 75-150 people and sound outstanding doing it.

It is my belief that getting good vocal coverage and quality is the most important role of the PA.

As for the suggestion of used, it is always a viable option.  For the mixer, a 16 channel MixWiz is a fantastic mixer if you can find one in your budget (I use one of these myself.  It is a fantastic mixer).  New they are around 1K, but on eBay, I have seen them go as low as $400.00 ..... but more generally go for between $600-750 even used .... they are a really good mixer and retain their value quite well.

I didn't mention prices for "great deal" used gear since you may or may not be able to get such a "great deal".  My neighbor went bankrupt and sold me a nearly new 4 piece, 20ft swede leather sectional for $300.00; however, I would never quote someone finishing their basement that the sectional would only cost $300.00

Buying used gear would allow you to fit your budget and get some flexibility.

I would suggest finding a pair of Peavey SP5's or Yamaha S115V speakers, a power amp and a decent mixer. That would cover your FOH needs quite well for well within your budget and give you the ability to expand later.

For clients of mine I recently got two SP5's for $250, a used Mixwizard 16:2 for $450 and a used QSC GX5 for $300. That system is a huge step up from a Passport.

I think the stock answer here is to always spend two or three times your budget when that's not always necessary.

Marks reply is also a good one; however, it goes in a different direction than mine.

Let me explain,

It is my opinion (as well as many others I know), that a final system using 12" tops over subs is pretty optimal with respect to having both vocal clarity and great bottom end.  15" 2-way speakers simply don't work as well in a "tops over subs" arrangement for a number of reasons.

Going with unpowered vs powered speakers is going to cause a number of problems as you attempt to expand your system.  Setting up a good sounding system with tops over subs from passive components requires a good amount of knowledge and equipment.  It also results in a much more difficult system to setup and run (I have done both).

Still, if your goal is to get the best sounding system you can for 1.5K, then I would agree that a pair of 15" tops is going to be difficult to beat.  I have a pair of Klipsch KP301 3-way 15" tops that positively rock stand alone (and are now doing party duty in my basement ).

Moving from stand a stand alone pair of 15" speakers to tops over subs is going to take some effort (I used to run my Klipsch over CV folded horns like this).  You will need something like the DBX Driverack PA in order to acomplish this and make it sound good (a speaker management DSP and crossover).  You will also need another power amp and an amp rack (which will provide you years of carrying enjoyment ).

Using modern powered speakers, the DSP, equalization, and crossover is all built in.

It was alluded to that at some point you are going to want a monitoring system.  By using powered speakers, it becomes pretty easy to add to the system (say another pair of RCF312's) to the system for a monitoring system which can also be used as a backup if one of your speakers fails).

There are definitely 2 different paths to complete the request.

[Mark Gensman]

Only if the budget is 1/3 to 1/2 what is really practical for their stated needs (read "desires").

Very often the thing that needs adjustment (along with the random budget figures) is the OP's actual needs vis a vis their expectations.

Edit:

You'll notice that the "used" option was mentioned within the first two responses........

I was more commenting on the posts that say the OP is way off in his budget. A PA for up to 150 folks for a band that isn't a rock or rap band can easily be assembled for $1,500 by buying decent used gear.

It seems to be a standard reply here, even in a forum for beginners, weekend warriors, etc. that it costs thousands of dollars for a PA regardless of need or venue. That simply isn't true.

You are correct in that the OP's actual needs should be considered.

And one other point. Not every band needs subs. Decent full range speakers can work just fine in small venues when the band isn't a loud rock and roll, rap, etc. group. At my acoustic venues, I never use subs..for example.

[Brad Weber]

I didn't miss the comments.  The OP has been going without kick and bass in the PA and IMHO, for the 1.5K he wishes to spend, his best bet is to continue to do so until he has another 1K to spend.  At that time he can have a PA that is able to support a bi-amped system with subs.
No .... another reason I made my suggestions.  Once all the instruments go through the PA a decent monitoring system is going to be needed.

Now that you explained your reasoning it makes more sense.  Whether this actually applies or not would seem to be predicated on how much of a priority simplifying the systems and not having to deal with other amps and speakers are.

Most venues I have played would be better served with 2 tops to cover the bar.  The ART RCF312 speakers are of the same quality of sound as any of the current great sounding new powered speakers, it only lacks the power of the new speakers.  This should be no problem at all since 2 of these speakers will easily handle a room of 75-150 people and sound outstanding doing it.

It is my belief that getting good vocal coverage and quality is the most important role of the PA.

Can you explain how two tops better serve those venues and how that relates to good vocal coverage?  Also, how does two mains work when you are also working with one guitar amp, one keyboard speaker, etc.?  It would seem that having left and right tops might be desired when dealing with wide rooms that need two speakers with minimal overlap in order to cover the audience area but may not be the best solution for long, narrow rooms and the majority of the bars and clubs I've worked in are more the latter.  But that is why it is important for the OP to consider how anything suggested applies to their situation.

As for the suggestion of used, it is always a viable option.  For the mixer, a 16 channel MixWiz is a fantastic mixer if you can find one in your budget (I use one of these myself.  It is a fantastic mixer).  New they are around 1K, but on eBay, I have seen them go as low as $400.00 ..... but more generally go for between $600-750 even used .... they are a really good mixer and retain their value quite well.

I agree with Mark.  Good quality used gear will last a small band a long time.  I recommend and usually find used gear for bands when they are starting up.  When they need larger sound for bigger venues, they call me to bring an appropriate rig.

Used gear can be a very good value, as long as you can verify what you are getting and its condition.  The concern I have with used gear for people with very limited budgets is that they also can't afford to take a risk on gear that may be unreliable or not work. So a good option if you can check out the gear before buying it, perhaps not so good an option if you are buying sight unseen from someone you do not know.

Going with unpowered vs powered speakers is going to cause a number of problems as you attempt to expand your system.  Setting up a good sounding system with tops over subs from passive components requires a good amount of knowledge and equipment.  It also results in a much more difficult system to setup and run (I have done both).

You mean you might actually have to understand what you are doing?    The choice between powered and unpowered speakers in basic systems seems to often be a tradeoff of flexibility versus simplicity.  For example, with powered speakers you can often add a sub and use the passive crossover in a sub, but you are stuck with whatever filter frequencies and slopes that has, which may be fine if you have matching subs and mains for which those factors were optimized but not so well otherwise.  And in that particular aspect there are also numerous powered systems that could be used the same way, amp to the subs with a high passed amplified output provided for the mains, actually making a potentially even simpler system since all you are dealing with is speaker cable(s) to the sub(s) and from there to the main(s) with no need to address getting power to all the speakers.

Moving from stand a stand alone pair of 15" speakers to tops over subs is going to take some effort (I used to run my Klipsch over CV folded horns like this).  You will need something like the DBX Driverack PA in order to acomplish this and make it sound good (a speaker management DSP and crossover).  You will also need another power amp and an amp rack (which will provide you years of carrying enjoyment ).

Using modern powered speakers, the DSP, equalization, and crossover is all built in.

Just to be clear, unless you get to some higher end products what is typically built in is signal processing for the speaker itself.  That processing is often rather complex and quite beneficial, however it is not providing processing for the system, the room or subjective preferences.  For example, if you use powered speakers for monitors the processing in the speakers not only does not address feedback but it may actually make feedback worse and require greater external processing.  So don't think that just because a powered speaker has internal processing that it is providing all the processing you may want in even a basic system.

[g'bye, Dick Rees]

I was more commenting on the posts that say the OP is way off in his budget. A PA for up to 150 folks for a band that isn't a rock or rap band can easily be assembled for $1,500 by buying decent used gear.

It seems to be a standard reply here, even in a forum for beginners, weekend warriors, etc. that it costs thousands of dollars for a PA regardless of need or venue. That simply isn't true.

You are correct in that the OP's actual needs should be considered.

And one other point. Not every band needs subs. Decent full range speakers can work just fine in small venues when the band isn't a loud rock and roll, rap, etc. group. At my acoustic venues, I never use subs..for example.

I was the second responder here and mentioned the used option among other general comments including the typical comment on a more realistic budget.  I would just add these comments:

1.  Budgets cited are likely arbitrary and not based on anything except a desire to spend as little as possible rather than any actual research/knowledge.  As such the cited figures are meaningless if not actually ludicrous (see again the "massive line array for $15K example). 

2.  For less experienced folks, buying used is more of a challenge in that used purchases are less often "returnable with receipt", may involve purchasing from a distance (Ebay, etc) and require enough knowledge of how things work to determine the condition of the piece.  Buying used also is likely to require a much longer period of shopping to find a piece once the proper gear has been selected.

I buy used whenever possible.  Did I get burned in the beginning?  A few times.

I think the salient point here is how the OP is using the resources that he has.  The "enhanced acoustic ensemble" or "vocals only" PA is a valid concept and is achievable with the stated "budget"......depending on the durability/quality of the upgrade and the ability to find bargains in the used market.   

[David Aston]

Really appreciate all the responses. As someone mentioned, my budget is a bit arbitrary.  We are "weekend warriors" so I'm just looking to improve our sound substantially over the Passport.  Since I'm not floating in a sea of money, I picked an amount I thought I could get passed through the spousal budgetary review committee, but I could stretch it a bit depending... Just needed a frame of reference to get started, which this thread has provided.

In response to specific questions, we use SM-58s.  We have DI for keys and bass amp only. We don't have monitors unless we pay a sound man.  And I'm not opposed to used at all, but it's a trade off between price, warranty, and availability.  First I have to figure out what I want. 

Based on my situation, and the feedback here, appears I should focus on the following priorities:

1) Main speakers (leaning toward powered)
2) mixer (might just use old 1604 for a while, which bumps this down)
3) monitors (probably 2 to get started)
4) subs (to allow us to run all through PA)

People have mentioned FX.  I don't think we know the difference since we never really use any (maybe reverb...)
Is that a "critical component"?

I really appreciate the specific model recommendations.  I checked out some K12s briefly over the weekend.  I was impressed, but also intrigued by the RCF ART 312a, given the recommendations and the lower price.  Also wondering about 10" versions.  Audio sales guy didn't have a k10 ready to demo, but recommended that with a sub if I was inclined.

Makes me think I should consider a pair of 310a's plus use my old Mackie mixer for now just for vocals, then add monitors, then someday subs when ready to run whole band through PA.

Thoughts on that route?   My only concern is buying the RFC's without hearing them first. 

[g'bye, Dick Rees]

Really appreciate all the responses. As someone mentioned, my budget is a bit arbitrary.  We are "weekend warriors" so I'm just looking to improve our sound substantially over the Passport.  Since I'm not floating in a sea of money, I picked an amount I thought I could get passed through the spousal budgetary review committee, but I could stretch it a bit depending... Just needed a frame of reference to get started, which this thread has provided.

In response to specific questions, we use SM-58s.  We have DI for keys and bass amp only. We don't have monitors unless we pay a sound man.  And I'm not opposed to used at all, but it's a trade off between price, warranty, and availability.  First I have to figure out what I want. 

Based on my situation, and the feedback here, appears I should focus on the following priorities:

1) Main speakers (leaning toward powered)
2) mixer (might just use old 1604 for a while, which bumps this down)
3) monitors (probably 2 to get started)
4) subs (to allow us to run all through PA)

People have mentioned FX.  I don't think we know the difference since we never really use any (maybe reverb...)
Is that a "critical component"?

I really appreciate the specific model recommendations.  I checked out some K12s briefly over the weekend.  I was impressed, but also intrigued by the RCF ART 312a, given the recommendations and the lower price.  Also wondering about 10" versions.  Audio sales guy didn't have a k10 ready to demo, but recommended that with a sub if I was inclined.

Makes me think I should consider a pair of 310a's plus use my old Mackie mixer for now just for vocals, then add monitors, then someday subs when ready to run whole band through PA.

Thoughts on that route?   My only concern is buying the RFC's without hearing them first.

I won't take the time right now to address everything in your post, but would offer this on speaker choice:

1.  Listening to playback in a sales room is not really a true test of a live music speaker.
    It will tell you something about the speaker compared to another brand/model side by side, but it's better if you can rent/demo something to use live.

2.  While pattern control is frequency dependent, the critical vocal frequencies are (generally felt) to live above a typical mid/hi box crossover and in the range where the pattern control is effective.  As such, your off-axis response and clarity for voice will be affected by your choice of box dispersion.  Your choices will be mostly 75 to 90 degrees in typical boxes with some as narrow as 60 or as wide as 110 degrees.  If you're going to use no more than one box per side, then a wider pattern is probably desirable.  If you're going to go to two per side eventually (and it sounds like you wouldn't), then you might want to consider a narrow patterned box.

I really do like the idea (for you and for my small ensembles) of using the PA simply to augment and balance the individual sounds from the players.  Being able to have a good ensemble sound BEFORE dealing with PA is just good musicianship.  If your players have good amps, sensitivity to on-stage volume/tone and the ability to work together for a good blend, then your PA needs for small rooms/quiet crowds are significantly diminished.

As always, "Ear before gear".

Good luck 

[Ned Ward]

I really do like the idea (for you and for my small ensembles) of using the PA simply to augment and balance the individual sounds from the players.  Being able to have a good ensemble sound BEFORE dealing with PA is just good musicianship.  If your players have good amps, sensitivity to on-stage volume/tone and the ability to work together for a good blend, then your PA needs for small rooms/quiet crowds are significantly diminished.

as always Dick hits the nail on the head. This will also keep your costs down and let you grow slowly.


The biggest trick is usually getting everyone to turn down, including the drummer. Search these forums and the archived forums on numerous tricks to get people to turn down.


Nothing wrong with using your Mackie 1604 for now - if it works and sounds good, use it. I've used 4 different Mackie mixers through my band years and they worked fine.


Your passport 250 could be used as a monitor until you get other monitors; send an aux send from the Mackie to one of the Line Inputs on your Passport; with the passport in Stereo, you could even get 2 different mixes to the left and right speakers. You didn't mention if you're buying the PA or if the band is buying, but the keyboard player should purchase his own amp. Instead of a dedicated keyboard amp, have him get the same model powered speaker you're getting for the mains - they work great.

[ProSoundWeb Community]