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[David Aston]

I'm in a 5 piece band as follows:

- singer/amplified acoustic guitar
- singer/electronic keyboard
- lead electric guitar/backup singer
- electric bass guitar
- full drum kit

We play a mix of rock/country/folk originals.  I would characterize us as moderate volume - certainly not a raging rock show, but because of a live drummer with a hot snare, we have to turn up a bit.  Our venues are generally small, 75-150 people.  If we play anything larger, we get a sound man.  We have played outdoors occasionally, but usually to a small, confined area. 

So far, we've been playing through individual amps and just running vocals through an older Fender Passport (250?).  Have also run keys through Passport, but had to add a Behringer powered 12" speaker (200w?) to help it keep up. 

I like the simplicity of an all in one mixer/power/speaker package that is easy to load in/out.  The problem is that we are constantly pushing the limits of the Passport to the point of distortion.  I would like a lot more headroom to avoid clipping and/or turning inputs up too close to feedback.  In addition, I find the idea of running everyone through the PA appealing.  It would give us more control over the mix, give us the option of real monitoring, and let us leave a few pieces of gear behind (Bass Cabinets, Keyboard and acoustic guitar amps). 

I'm looking at the new Fender Passport 500, as it has more power and supposedly has been redesigned into a much better product, but I'm leery as I just haven't been impressed with the quality/vocal clarity of the one we have.  Also wondering if separates is the way to go to give us more flexibility.

I was thinking that ideally, we would have 12" mains plus a sub, with power in the 1000w range, plus 3 monitors (two up front for singers and one for bass/drums).  Would that setup make sense for us?

Then there are other considerations, like powered speakers versus powered mixer.  Really just looking to narrow all this down. 

I'd like to keep the budget around $1000, but could be persuaded to go to $1500 if it was worth the additional expense.  Also note that it's possible this will end up serving double duty for a 3 piece jazz band at some point, but I figure you can always go down in size....

If you made it this far, thanks!  any advice or direction is greatly appreciated.  If there is a post that already addresses

[Spenser Hamilton]

I don't think $1000, or even $1500, is a realistic budget for what you want. The fender system's are toys in my opinion.

[g'bye, Dick Rees]

David.....

You're on your way to a pro rig, so I'd recommend increasing your budget to encompass the transition.  You could get another "toy" rig like the Fender, the Peavey equivalent or any of the other myriad "package" PA's, but my advice is to go to a component system which would be scalable for your usage.

There are some budget powered cabinets that should work for you.  Some are even made out of wood instead of plastic.  But you'll need some kind of mixer and processing.......and the best way to do that is with a small digital mixer such as the Yamaha 01v or the Presonus StudioLive.

I'd guess that you could put together a mixer/speaker package without subs for $3-4K by judicious shopping and perhaps buying some pieces used.  You concept of using a small, quality PA to equalize all the sounds as an "enhanced acoustic ensemble" is very valid.  Too bad you can't tame the drums and avoid having to mix by making everything else as loud as the one instrument that's out of control.

For speakers I'd look for powered units that double as wedges and mains so you can mix and match as needed for coverage and monitor needs.  Considering what you're using now, almost anything that can handle some power and stay tight is going to be a large step up.

Good luck.

[Jonathan Wiegratz]

"Buy Once, Cry Once"...

Meaning, don't buy something cheap now, when you're going to have to go back to buy something decent in the future.  Buy something decent right now.

For ~$3000, you could get yourself a pair of QSC K12's, a single KW181 sub.... use the internal crossover.... and match that up with the 'swiss army knife'  Allen & Heath MixWiz3 board.       Add a 2nd KW181 sub down the road when you need more thump.

[Gene Lollis]

Where are you located? There are probably members around that have some gear for sale...

[Ned Ward]

David - welcome to the forum.

I'm in a similar situation as you - we play in smaller bars that hold 75-100 people. I've found that for those size bars, 1 powered QSC HPR122 up on a stand is more than enough. Run vocals, acoustic guitar and keyboard through it. You won't need subs yet; they're a nice to have once you've moved up. Bass and electric guitars can run through their own amps.

Mixer - You'll need to upgrade from your passport. You can stay analog with something super simple like a Mackie 802 with 3 mic pres, or a Mix Wiz. I opted to buy a used Yamaha 01v (original) that lets me have 12 mic pres, 4 monitor mixes, and digital EQ, effects and dynamics all in 1 box.

for monitors, if your singers don't jump around a lot, I swear by the Rolls PM50S - it's basically the poor man's IEM. For $60 and a good set of earbuds, you can send a mix to your band mates and they'll be fine. Also a lot cheaper and lighter than carrying monitor speakers for each band member. The box can be worn with a clip or on the floor with a longer headphone extension cord. We bought one and used it on our singer for a gig; she and the keyboard player both bought one over the holiday break. You may need to have a mic on stage that only feeds the monitors so that they can get some "stage volume," but it's a small price to pay.

We also use my QSC HPR122 speakers as floor monitors when we do other gigs where the PA is provided, but they're lacking in floor monitors. As Dick said, having a speaker that can be your floor wedge or up on a stand is a great investment.

The HPR series is discontinued, but the K12 is a fine replacement and even lighter.

Other things to get if you don't have them:
Good speaker stands - you want to get the horns of the speakers above people's heads.
Cables - audiopile.net has great stuff at reasonable prices.
Used - I've bought all of my mixers and most of my guitar amps off eBay. Used gets you great values.

Good Luck!

[Scott Bolt]

I'm in a 5 piece band as follows:

- singer/amplified acoustic guitar
- singer/electronic keyboard
- lead electric guitar/backup singer
- electric bass guitar
- full drum kit

We play a mix of rock/country/folk originals.  I would characterize us as moderate volume - certainly not a raging rock show, but because of a live drummer with a hot snare, we have to turn up a bit.  Our venues are generally small, 75-150 people.  If we play anything larger, we get a sound man.  We have played outdoors occasionally, but usually to a small, confined area. 

So far, we've been playing through individual amps and just running vocals through an older Fender Passport (250?).  Have also run keys through Passport, but had to add a Behringer powered 12" speaker (200w?) to help it keep up. 

I like the simplicity of an all in one mixer/power/speaker package that is easy to load in/out.  The problem is that we are constantly pushing the limits of the Passport to the point of distortion.  I would like a lot more headroom to avoid clipping and/or turning inputs up too close to feedback.  In addition, I find the idea of running everyone through the PA appealing.  It would give us more control over the mix, give us the option of real monitoring, and let us leave a few pieces of gear behind (Bass Cabinets, Keyboard and acoustic guitar amps). 

I'm looking at the new Fender Passport 500, as it has more power and supposedly has been redesigned into a much better product, but I'm leery as I just haven't been impressed with the quality/vocal clarity of the one we have.  Also wondering if separates is the way to go to give us more flexibility.

I was thinking that ideally, we would have 12" mains plus a sub, with power in the 1000w range, plus 3 monitors (two up front for singers and one for bass/drums).  Would that setup make sense for us?

Then there are other considerations, like powered speakers versus powered mixer.  Really just looking to narrow all this down. 

I'd like to keep the budget around $1000, but could be persuaded to go to $1500 if it was worth the additional expense.  Also note that it's possible this will end up serving double duty for a 3 piece jazz band at some point, but I figure you can always go down in size....

If you made it this far, thanks!  any advice or direction is greatly appreciated.  If there is a post that already addresses

David,

Welcome to PSW!

With your budget, I would suggest going with as much quality as you can in as modular and expandable way as you can.  That way, in the future your investment can be used as a reusable asset you can build on.

First, the bad news ....you can't put together a good quality system to mic and amplify your entire band on the budget you have stated.  Even a very low end system with microphones, cables, etc, etc, would exceed $1500.00 if you tried to cover the entire band.

Now the good news.... with $1500.00 you can greatly enhance the sound of your band over your existing setup and make sure you aren't throwing away your money on something you are simply going to have to replace later anyway.

• For the FOH tops, find some ART RCF312's.  They can be had for around $400.00 each ..... which is a true steal for the quality you will be getting.  I realize that this blows over half your budget, but seriously, this is not where you are going to want to skimp.  This one investment piece will enhance your band more than you can imagine.
• yamaha mg166cx mixer.  This will give you a decent mixer with 16 channels, reverb for vocals, and compression for vocals all for around $400.00.

Sadly, you are out of money for that sub you wanted

I promise that the system I outlined above will absolutely blow your mind compared to what you have been using.  It isn't going to thump the place with huge kick, but that isn't where you are with your budget.  What it WILL do is give you the foundation of a system you can grow with.  You can mic your entire band with 16 channels in the future when you have sufficient money to go the rest of the way.

What is the "rest of the way" .... really just microphones, cables and subs.  There are many powered subs out there right now that would work wonderfully with the RCF tops. They all run around $700 - $1000 each and will give you the punch and thump you are looking for.  All of them have built in cross-overs and would immediately "just work" with your tops with no further equipment needed.

I am sure that most of the members here will agree with me that getting something like I have suggested is a great way to start your PA system in a way that isn't just throw away garbage that won't sound much better than what you already have (although I suspect that a few are going to dispute my mixer choice ).

Good luck!
[/list]

[Ned Ward]

For 75-100 people, they'll get enough thump from the actual kick drum and the bass player's amp that subs should be the last thing you add to your PA. I've been doing shows with our band with similar instruments (2 guitars, keyboard/bass/drums, 3 vocals) and haven't yet bought a sub.

You didn't mention what kind of vocal microphones or DI you have for the acoustic guitar -- depending on what you have those may be areas to improve as well before getting a sub.

Scott's reco of the Yamaha MG is fine; FYI my 01v used was $350. Again, look used to find value in things as people trade up to the latest "it" mixer, speaker, etc.  A Mix Wiz 3 went on eBay for $650 not too long ago, so bargains can be had. Mackie Onyx would also be a good choice.

[Brad Weber]

I'm in a 5 piece band as follows:

- singer/amplified acoustic guitar
- singer/electronic keyboard
- lead electric guitar/backup singer
- electric bass guitar
- full drum kit

I like the simplicity of an all in one mixer/power/speaker package that is easy to load in/out.  The problem is that we are constantly pushing the limits of the Passport to the point of distortion.  I would like a lot more headroom to avoid clipping and/or turning inputs up too close to feedback.  In addition, I find the idea of running everyone through the PA appealing.  It would give us more control over the mix, give us the option of real monitoring, and let us leave a few pieces of gear behind (Bass Cabinets, Keyboard and acoustic guitar amps).

Sadly, you are out of money for that sub you wanted

For 75-100 people, they'll get enough thump from the actual kick drum and the bass player's amp that subs should be the last thing you add to your PA. I've been doing shows with our band with similar instruments (2 guitars, keyboard/bass/drums, 3 vocals) and haven't yet bought a sub.

I don't know if you missed the comments that they have keys and would also like to run everything through the system or if you are saying that it is not feasible to do so, which may be the case with a $1,000 to $1,500 budget.  When you don't run the bass, kick, etc. through the house system, do you still mic them for the monitors?

That seems to potentially lead to a related issue that if you are currently running everything through dedicated amps and have no monitors then it seems likely that there would be some monitors, DIs, mics, etc. associated with getting the instruments into the PA system and adding monitors.  Has that been accounted for in the budget?


Just to highlight a point that may easily be overlooked, some of the suggestions are for two main speakers while Ned recommended just one.  Think about the venues you play in and what you are trying to do, a single higher quality speaker may be better than less expensive left and right speakers.  At the same time, you might want to consider the impact on stereo key patches, stereo effects and so forth.  This is an example of where there can be multiple 'right' answers you have to decide which is right for you.

Good speaker stands - you want to get the horns of the speakers above people's heads.

I think I know what you meant but just getting the speakers above the audience's heads would mean most of the sound from the speakers being directed somewhere other than at the audience.  Preferably you would get the speakers above their heads but also aimed down at the audience.

[Mark Gensman]

Buying used gear would allow you to fit your budget and get some flexibility.

I would suggest finding a pair of Peavey SP5's or Yamaha S115V speakers, a power amp and a decent mixer. That would cover your FOH needs quite well for well within your budget and give you the ability to expand later.

For clients of mine I recently got two SP5's for $250, a used Mixwizard 16:2 for $450 and a used QSC GX5 for $300. That system is a huge step up from a Passport.

I think the stock answer here is to always spend two or three times your budget when that's not always necessary.

[ProSoundWeb Community]