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[TJ (Tom) Cornish]

The other thing that pops to mind is what type of FOH systems are running for these jobs. It makes sense to me to pair a $2000-$3000 console with a $5000 FOH system. It makes sense to pair a $8000 console with a $8000-$10000 system. It doesn't make sense to me to pair a $8000 console with a $5000 system (or vice versa).

This may be a difference of musical genre, but I run a $5000 mixer (2 01v96s) into a $40,000 PA, once you count mains monitors, cabling, cases, power, etc.  Though I'd like a nicer mixer primarily for more aux sends, my highest level wish list items are on the PA side rather than the mixer side, even now.

[Jay Barracato]

This may be a difference of musical genre, but I run a $5000 mixer (2 01v96s) into a $40,000 PA, once you count mains monitors, cabling, cases, power, etc.  Though I'd like a nicer mixer primarily for more aux sends, my highest level wish list items are on the PA side rather than the mixer side, even now.

I think that still follows my premise, in that I am looking at it from a performers side, while you are looking at it from a providers side. If the 01V's are adequate for your use, great. If having a higher quality digital mixer really matters to the bands crew, it can easily be brought in for that show, and will nicely match the quality of the rest of your rig.

I really agree with you, that I would tend to put my money into mics and speakers have the greatest impact on the overall sound.

[Jeff Babcock]

That $8,000 dollar budget is how much I could spend responsibly considering my income. That does not include case / power.

I just am stuck on the idea of paying thousands more and loosing what seems like a big feature, which is potentially marketable.

Can you wait a bit longer? 

Based on your "professional image" motivations, I'm not suggesting that you would want one, but I believe Behringer's soon to arrive X32 is going to eat away at the lower end of the market and increase competition in the price range you are talking about. 

If they can even partially overcome their historic reliability concerns they have the potential to sell a pile of those (they leveraged Midas for a pretty serious feature set that they seem to have actually done their homework on, at 1/3 of the price of some comparative offerings), and other manufacturers will undoubtedly respond, possibly in terms of pricing incentives and/or new competitive products, which will be good for your pocketbook.

It will be interesting to see how it all pans out.  It certainly has the potential to shake things up.  Time will tell if it does....

[TJ (Tom) Cornish]

Can you wait a bit longer? 

Based on your "professional image" motivations, I'm not suggesting that you would want one, but I believe Behringer's soon to arrive X32 is going to eat away at the lower end of the market and increase competition in the price range you are talking about. 

If they can even partially overcome their historic reliability concerns they have the potential to sell a pile of those (they leveraged Midas for a pretty serious feature set that they seem to have actually done their homework on, at 1/3 of the price of some comparative offerings), and other manufacturers will undoubtedly respond, possibly in terms of pricing incentives and/or new competitive products, which will be good for your pocketbook.

It will be interesting to see how it all pans out.  It certainly has the potential to shake things up.  Time will tell if it does....

I agree 1000%.  This seems like a really poor time to be shopping for a mixer in this price bracket - all of the $5000 - $10,000 mixers seem to be over priced for what they do. There's some movement at the bottom of the barrel with the Studiolives and there's movement north of $15K, but in the middle ground where my budgets lie, there's nothing compelling me to move from my 8-year old 01v96s.

[Samuel Rees]

I agree 1000%.  This seems like a really poor time to be shopping for a mixer in this price bracket - all of the $5000 - $10,000 mixers seem to be over priced for what they do. There's some movement at the bottom of the barrel with the Studiolives and there's movement north of $15K, but in the middle ground where my budgets lie, there's nothing compelling me to move from my 8-year old 01v96s.

I don't want 01v96s at all. Too few inputs on the single console, I'd spend nearly as much on two of them as I would the SiC (my dealer quoting me $6899 for a new SiC 24), no recallable head amps for easy transition between my regular church gigs, and I'd get a weird double console tiny-screen layered yamaha interface to go with it, even if I got an ADAT expansion I want something that is one box not some big connection setup. I want to be able to walk into a church I do sound at, plug in some cables hit 2 buttons and be exactly where I was 1 week ago. I am glad the 01v96s work for you - I realize that it does for some people - but I have no desire for them at all and I'd rather just stick to renting and/or the house consoles at the places I am at.

In regards to the Behringer: I read a statement saying that the association with Midas is all financial and they are not sharing any R&D. Second, that just about negatively accomplish's my goals in regards to professional image. Even if my Behringer console could fly me to the moon and comb my hair people would still judge it. I don't want to spend thousands of dollars on some console I have to fight for respect for. Also, I know some people are not of this camp, but I have owned and used several pieces of gear and experienced bad quality and/or hardware failure on all of them. I used a Eurodesk where auxes died like once a month, a DSP unit that overheated and sounded terrible... I don't want to turn this into a Behringer debate but basically I couldn't sleep at night owning it. Regardless of all the specifics, I think it would create more fear and image problems than any features would be worth to me.

From the things said in this thread I think the SiC accomplishes most of my goals. Its within my budget, has an all-in-one super quick quality interface with tons of graphics, nice pres and full recall, a brand with a great professional image, and it is at the beginning of a product cycle . You guys convinced me that multitracking isn't the dealbreaker I was thinking it was. I have enough outputs that I could stem some great live recordings to an interface I already have, and if I really have that much of a professional demand for multitrack I'll have the $$ for MADI gear. I think that just about wraps it up for me guys. I still would love to hear any thoughts you guys have though.

This is my first post in PSW and you guys seem like a vibrant helpful community. Thanks so much!

PS - I don't intend on buying a whole PA. All these gigs I am getting, mostly regular ones like church services and etc, have their own systems. I haven't done a gig where I had to bring anything besides a console in a long time, and I don't see much prospects for that for me. The big reason I want a console is because I keep coming to these places where they really short on the console and it just kills the system and If hiring me was hiring me + sweet console, I think I'd be a much better commodity. For example, this church I recently started working at has a full band with horns and other instruments, a big QSC KW and RCF rig with 6 monitors and sometimes in ears... but they have a small 16ch console with no graphic EQs.

[Chris Jensen]

I don't want 01v96s at all. Too few inputs on the single console, I'd spend nearly as much on two of them as I would the SiC (my dealer quoting me $6899 for a new SiC 24), no recallable head amps for easy transition between my regular church gigs, and I'd get a weird double console tiny-screen layered yamaha interface to go with it, even if I got an ADAT expansion I want something that is one box not some big connection setup. I want to be able to walk into a church I do sound at, plug in some cables hit 2 buttons and be exactly where I was 1 week ago. I am glad the 01v96s work for you - I realize that it does for some people - but I have no desire for them at all and I'd rather just stick to renting and/or the house consoles at the places I am at.

In regards to the Behringer: I read a statement saying that the association with Midas is all financial and they are not sharing any R&D. Second, that just about negatively accomplish's my goals in regards to professional image. Even if my Behringer console could fly me to the moon and comb my hair people would still judge it. I don't want to spend thousands of dollars on some console I have to fight for respect for. Also, I know some people are not of this camp, but I have owned and used several pieces of gear and experienced bad quality and/or hardware failure on all of them. I used a Eurodesk where auxes died like once a month, a DSP unit that overheated and sounded terrible... I don't want to turn this into a Behringer debate but basically I couldn't sleep at night owning it. Regardless of all the specifics, I think it would create more fear and image problems than any features would be worth to me.

From the things said in this thread I think the SiC accomplishes most of my goals. Its within my budget, has an all-in-one super quick quality interface with tons of graphics, nice pres and full recall, a brand with a great professional image, and it is at the beginning of a product cycle . You guys convinced me that multitracking isn't the dealbreaker I was thinking it was. I have enough outputs that I could stem some great live recordings to an interface I already have, and if I really have that much of a professional demand for multitrack I'll have the $$ for MADI gear. I think that just about wraps it up for me guys. I still would love to hear any thoughts you guys have though.

This is my first post in PSW and you guys seem like a vibrant helpful community. Thanks so much!

PS - I don't intend on buying a whole PA. All these gigs I am getting, mostly regular ones like church services and etc, have their own systems. I haven't done a gig where I had to bring anything besides a console in a long time, and I don't see much prospects for that for me. The big reason I want a console is because I keep coming to these places where they really short on the console and it just kills the system and If hiring me was hiring me + sweet console, I think I'd be a much better commodity. For example, this church I recently started working at has a full band with horns and other instruments, a big QSC KW and RCF rig with 6 monitors and sometimes in ears... but they have a small 16ch console with no graphic EQs.

I must start by saying I have no experience with any of these consoles, but I have much experience in the workplace.  These are just tools to get the job done.  Yes it is great to have the shinny tools but at some point you have to make the tool work for you.  In this live world how much of your work is coming from people you have no experience with.  More often then not your connections with people lead to new work.  Your past track record will determine what you can charge for a gig.  If you can get by with a $2k console instead of a $10k console think of what you can do with that extra money. 

Being more on the lighting side of the industry I see people continually spec super expensive boards as it is their tool of choice.  Does it fit the production profile?  If a simple fader board will work no client cares who makes it only how much it costs.  Try convincing them that your board will do more of what they don't necessarily need or understand.  At some point your tools are for you and your working.  Now your level of gig has to be able to support your work habits and needs.

I had a good discussion with a lighting designer friend of mine who is just starting out.  She went to a HS that wanted her to do a job and they had a fixed budget.  She was trying to sell them on a Vectorworks drawing of their space that would be reused over and over just like she was taught in school.  As I pointed out, I wasn't a fan of her drafting and would probably re do it myself in my own standards.  Would that mean the school would have to pay me if I was hired later?  At some level should the client be responsible for what you need as tools.  I could have done the plot on a napkin.  The point is design fee is for a design and is reflected by your end product, not your tools to get it done.  Yes in a bigger gig environment they won't accept napkins, but again the price is there to justify all the toys and tools.  Some older designers can't use computers but still put up a hell of a design with a pencil.

It is hard for me to think of someone getting a job based on a tool they use.  Outcome can vary by the user of the selected tool, knowing your tool intimately is far better then the tool itself.  Does your gig yield enough return for an $8,000 board?  If yes then buy it.  But don't get carried away by the badge on the equipment.  Don't forget to use references where needed, these people you have worked for in the past, provide them to future clients if they have doubt.  I would consider hiring the Behringer guy if I knew his work was great, I don't care if he uses Yamaha or Peavey.  I can't decide what tools work best for him.  Think of how many tool manufactures make drills.  At some point they all make holes.

I know there is an image in this industry but at the end of the day the quality of work isn't necessarily defined by how expensive and shiny the toys are.  Just a thing to think about as you are staring out here. 

Chris

P.S. As a joke ask one of the musicians to get a newer better guitar, the one he has looks like crap and is an off brand.

[Samuel Rees]

Thanks Chris, I appreciate the perspective. I see what you mean about the input gear vs output pay, but how would you value the educational aspect? Maybe that sounds silly, but I feel like there is some relationship there. For example, as a young engineer I still have a lot to learn. When I am working a console with "room to grow", I feel like I learn so much. I used to work all analog, then this club I work at got an LS9 and now I'd feel pretty comfortable jumping up to an M7 - I think

I feel like a touring class digital console would give me superior experience and room to grow. Now don't get me wrong - I understand that gear isn't everything. Ultimately, it is about the end result - I have seen guys make shows more beautiful than I ever have on old consoles. But, I still feel like the abillity to operate and/or own big digital consoles is a commodity in of itself. If I was being interviewed for club position where there was an M7, I could say, "well I know the LS9 and other small digitals well, I'm confident I could quickly transition my skills to a larger scale", but if I'm running around with Presonus gear all day I might get the job done but I wonder where it will "take me".

Do you guys have any thoughts on the educational / experience value of gear?

[g'bye, Dick Rees]

Thanks Chris, I appreciate the perspective. I see what you mean about the input gear vs output pay, but how would you value the educational aspect? Maybe that sounds silly, but I feel like there is some relationship there. For example, as a young engineer I still have a lot to learn. When I am working a console with "room to grow", I feel like I learn so much. I used to work all analog, then this club I work at got an LS9 and now I'd feel pretty comfortable jumping up to an M7 - I think

I feel like a touring class digital console would give me superior experience and room to grow. Now don't get me wrong - I understand that gear isn't everything. Ultimately, it is about the end result - I have seen guys make shows more beautiful than I ever have on old consoles. But, I still feel like the abillity to operate and/or own big digital consoles is a commodity in of itself. If I was being interviewed for club position where there was an M7, I could say, "well I know the LS9 and other small digitals well, I'm confident I could quickly transition my skills to a larger scale", but if I'm running around with Presonus gear all day I might get the job done but I wonder where it will "take me".

Do you guys have any thoughts on the educational / experience value of gear?

Mr Rees.....

Anyone can buy a Stradivarius.  Few can really play one.

In the end it is the job you do with the tools you have, the service you provide and the person you are.  If you're open and honest and proficient technically, you are two steps ahead.  I'd rank the tools third after professionalism and knowledge.  Neither of these is inherent in the gear you choose.

There's nothing wrong with wanting the console you've apparently chosen.  From a business standpoint, though, it does seem like it is well in excess of what is required for your current market.  And if your clients really are hiring you for the gear you have rather than who you are, then the next yahoo to come along with a chrome-plated digital doo-hickey is going to get the job instead of you.

Another Mr. Rees

[Samuel Rees]

And if your clients really are hiring you for the gear you have rather than who you are, then the next yahoo to come along with a chrome-plated digital doo-hickey is going to get the job instead of you.

Another Mr. Rees

Well that is a dismal outlook! I'd like to make the assumption in this conversation that my skills are generally appropriate for the scale of my gigs. Is it really absurd to splurge a little on a piece of gear I don't think will outgrow me for some time? That sounds so dismal I want to plan for the future a little bit, I expect (hopefully??) to do better and better and eventually find myself using the full extent of that console and have learned a lot along the way.

I don't think the guitar / instrument comparison works completely. No one hire's guitar player's in any way based on a guitar they own. But, If I can run in ears at any job I do because I have tons of mixes, that's part of my appeal. Obviously, what kind of job I do is the other (bigger) part, but I feel like the former has to help. Next thing I know I've mixed a bunch of shows on ears and I've got my in-ear mixing chops up even more. I feel like its win win as long as I'm not buyin anything too insane: I definitly should not take out a loan for an SC48.

I don't know, maybe I am just justifying being a gearslut. I realize this thread has run away from the original topic a bit but I appreciate everyone's thoughts.... Anyone agree with me though?

[Ben Brunskill]

I sort of agree with you, but not quite. You're talking about buying a desk that will help you get gigs and help you to upskill.

But the console you are considering are not really going to do that. At a smaller club gig, no one really cares what the console is - as long as it sounds good. You can do it on analog, LS-9, SiCompact. Your chops on the desk matter way more than the desk itself.
I don't someone is going to hire you because you own a desk.

At the next level of gigs, ie. touring artists, multitrack recording etc, the console starts to matter more, SC48, M7, Midas Pro2 and that sort of thing.

You seem set on buying a console, and I say go for it. But get the Presonus SL24 - less spent the better, because I really don't think that owning a console is going to make you any more money. It also can multitrack with a Firewire computer. If you do go for the SiCompact, get the 32 channel version. If you don't, there will come a day when you need more the 24 channels and you'll need to buy another console.

[ProSoundWeb Community]