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Author Topic: Dual 21 inch subs  (Read 24411 times)

Ivan Beaver

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Re: Dual 21 inch subs
« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2011, 09:04:32 am »

Anything is possible in your dreams......
I often have dreams where I can take a hop and simply glide above the ground.  It is really cool and very real.  Until I wake up and have to walk to the shower.
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A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

PHYSICS- NOT FADS!

duane massey

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Re: Dual 21 inch subs
« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2011, 11:08:45 am »



It could be that the EAW system you said you didn't like may have been operated that way for some reason.  I have done shows that the FOH guy would actually get rid of the deep lows because they didn't like it.



Yep, great point, Ivan. I did an install a few years back including a pair of massive 4x18 exponential bass horns, and the performance was truly impressive (considering the non-existent budget). Went back 2 months later to hear a show there (semi-national act) and there was very little bottom end at all. Asked the house guy "What the hell?" and he told me the band's engineer didn't believe in using anything below 75hz.
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Duane Massey
Technician, musician, stubborn old guy
Houston, Texas

Ivan Beaver

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Re: Dual 21 inch subs
« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2011, 12:32:56 pm »

Yep, great point, Ivan. I did an install a few years back including a pair of massive 4x18 exponential bass horns, and the performance was truly impressive (considering the non-existent budget). Went back 2 months later to hear a show there (semi-national act) and there was very little bottom end at all. Asked the house guy "What the hell?" and he told me the band's engineer didn't believe in using anything below 75hz.
And if somebody was in the audience judging the quality of the bass-they might post on a forum that those cabinets had no bass.

Or in a different light, at on e of our stadium installs the subs went solid down into the 30's.  But they are highpassed somewhere around 50-60Hz.

The reason?  VIP seats.  While a lot more was spent on the rigging than the actual loudspeakers.  The loudspeakers are on the roof with the enclosed VIP sections are below them.  A LOT of attention was paid to keeping the bass out of those suites.

Every sub and full range cabinet was mounted with spring/rubber isolators in a "bunker".  Then that bunker was mounted on huge rubber isolators and the base went straight down to the main structure steel.

It works very well at keeping the bass from  around 60hz up out of those suites.  But  below that, the bass still gets into them and "annoys" them.  So rather than allowing the cabinets to be used down to their potential, they are highpassed.

And the causual person who would go to a game there and know what cabinets were being used would come back and say  "I heard the TH118's and they really didin't go that low".  Yes in THAT PARTICULAR situation they were not allowed to.  But you would still form an impression.

Unless you really know what all is going on, it can be hard to judge some aspects of performance during a performance-especially when other people are in control of the system setup and mix.
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A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

PHYSICS- NOT FADS!

Jeff Bankston

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Re: Dual 21 inch subs
« Reply #13 on: November 24, 2011, 05:34:18 pm »

Al at u.s.speaker says the Ciare 18" woofs have the lowest freq response, i think he said they were flat to 30cps. 877-732-5374 http://www.usspeaker.com  .... all those guys are right about how the system is set up. the room/building/colusiem/etc makes a big difference on how a system sounds. the only way to judge is to do a side by side comparison.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2011, 05:37:02 pm by Jeff Harrell »
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Tim Padrick

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Re: Dual 21 inch subs
« Reply #14 on: November 26, 2011, 06:35:57 am »

I often have dreams where I can take a hop and simply glide above the ground.  It is really cool and very real.  Until I wake up and have to walk to the shower.

In mine, I don't have to hop - I just levitate and go - pretty quickly too.  And it is indeed cool as hell.
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Randy Frierson

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Re: Dual 21 inch subs
« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2011, 10:35:42 pm »

Anything is possible in your dreams......

Buying componets is the easy part...building a sub cabinet takes alot of knowledge that you cannot get from any plans...
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Jeff Bankston

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Re: Dual 21 inch subs
« Reply #16 on: December 08, 2011, 02:13:24 am »

Buying componets is the easy part...building a sub cabinet takes alot of knowledge that you cannot get from any plans...
you said it ! i learned that on my first cabnet build back in the 70's. waiting for the new FaitalPro 18xl1600 to arrive at u.s. speaker. then the task to build a cabnet and get it right begins. i got lots of plywood to experiment with.
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Art Welter

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Re: Dual 21 inch subs
« Reply #17 on: December 08, 2011, 05:56:22 pm »

Thanks for your reply. Yes they had 16 21 inch B&C drivers. That was what they chose to take out for the show. They can go up to 8 subs per side which equates to 16 drivers per side. They are a large company so they can afford it. As I said before, I wouldn't buy everything at once. I'm just starting so I'd start small. However for the type of shows I want to do, I require alot of low end and I understand that going with 18's would be cheaper and the weight advantages would be better but I would need too many cabs to get the low end I require. I went to show recently and they have 16 eaw sb1000 subs per side powered by macrotech amplifiers and in my opinion, although they sounded good, the low end output from them came nowhere close to the 4 dual 21 inch subs per side at the other show I went to. So I had just made up my mind to go dual 21 inch from the start.
The Neo BC drivers are in a different league than the drivers used in EAW SB1000s, whether 18" or 21", but they do require lots of power to achieve the difference.

This is a good BR design for a BC21SW152:
http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=1&mset=32

If you tune higher (shorten the port) than the present 25 Hz Fb, sensitivity would go up quite a bit.
For most heavy bass musical genre an Fb of 30 Hz would be plenty low, and would kick up the LF response quite a bit.

« Last Edit: December 08, 2011, 05:58:40 pm by Art Welter »
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Bill Hornibrook

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Re: Dual 21 inch subs
« Reply #18 on: December 10, 2011, 03:05:42 pm »

The 21" sub cabs I built for those drivers (based on B&C's design off their website) are smaller but tuned higher - at 33hz.
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Charlie Zureki

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Re: Dual 21 inch subs
« Reply #19 on: December 14, 2011, 10:08:34 am »

 1.)  My advice to this young man is that he buy used, brand name sound gear.
 2.)  That wanting to build, and having the ability to build his own cabinets are two separate issues. Especially, if he wants some degree of performance from his build.
 3.)  That he get started with some type of system to generate money with which he'll reinvest to buy better gear....while, at the same time, learning about professional audio, building a reputation and a client list.
 4.) That this young man research the cost of a basic system that would provide audio coverage for three hundred people, outdoors, and with all the little things...like Mics, Stands, clamps, Wireless Mics, Mic cables, Electrical leads, Speaker cables, System Processing, Effects gear, Snakes, Foldback cabinets, Amplifiers (unless spkrs are self powered) cases, racks & trunks, some way to transport it all,  etc.... and realize that 1 sub cabinet is like a grain of sand on the beach compared to all of the other gear he'd need to provide audio for any show.
 
 Not trying to discourage him (you), but it's very hard to build a system...especially starting with a single subwoofer...and one piece at a time.  You need deep pockets.

  Good Luck,
  Hammer
 ps..the system you described sounds like Franz Ferdinands...?

 
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Do it the right way....don't be a Dino!
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