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Author Topic: Digital mixer - pros and cons?  (Read 43949 times)

Kevin Maxwell

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Digital mixer - pros and cons?
« on: November 17, 2011, 12:07:13 PM »

Digital mixer - pros and cons?

A church that is a client has asked the question – what are the pros and cons of a digital mixer verses keeping their analog mixer. Their sound people are all for changing to digital it is the leadership that is asking the question. So I am trying to get other opinions on the subject.

This is for the live house/monitor system. They mix monitors from the house console. They presently have an A&H GL4000-48 and we are looking to replace it with an Avid SC48. We have had all of the future expansion discussions and the SC48 looks to fulfill their needs. Also they have no need for recording from the house console, there is a split to the broadcast recording room where they do a stereo mix and a multi-track recording.

Please lets not discuss different mixer solutions in this thread (if you feel that that is absolutely necessary then please start another thread and put a link to it in your response here) this is all about the pros and cons of digital mixers.

Thank you for your input. 
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John Sulek

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Re: Digital mixer - pros and cons?
« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2011, 12:33:44 PM »

Digital mixer - pros and cons?

A church that is a client has asked the question – what are the pros and cons of a digital mixer verses keeping their analog mixer. Their sound people are all for changing to digital it is the leadership that is asking the question. So I am trying to get other opinions on the subject.

This is for the live house/monitor system. They mix monitors from the house console. They presently have an A&H GL4000-48 and we are looking to replace it with an Avid SC48. We have had all of the future expansion discussions and the SC48 looks to fulfill their needs. Also they have no need for recording from the house console, there is a split to the broadcast recording room where they do a stereo mix and a multi-track recording.

Please lets not discuss different mixer solutions in this thread (if you feel that that is absolutely necessary then please start another thread and put a link to it in your response here) this is all about the pros and cons of digital mixers.

Thank you for your input.
Pros..
1. the ability to have easily recallable preset scenes to accomodate different set-ups.
2. easier to expand/reconfigure than the fixed format of an analogue console.

Cons...
1. having to train the sound people on the new hardware.
2. the time/cost of having someone on the audio team program the console with the needed scenes.
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Airton Pereira

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Re: Digital mixer - pros and cons?
« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2011, 01:26:43 PM »

Pros:

1 - less weight
2 - many recallable scenes to fulfill many acts
3 - more easily expandable
4 - requires less space

cons:

1 - Training people
2 - Some would say sound quality

Little doubt here, now that the SC48 comes with pro tools 9, is it possible to record 32 channles at the same time? The PT LE only allowed 18...
« Last Edit: November 17, 2011, 04:55:03 PM by Airton Pereira Silva »
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Christopher Capp

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Re: Digital mixer - pros and cons?
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2011, 01:50:25 PM »

I would never recommend a digital mixer for a live application. Yeah everyone always says you can have recallable scenes. But that's not the point...

In live events you need immediacy. I mean you need dedicated knobs and faders for every parameter. The last thing you want is to have to dial through screen based digital sub menus to go find the eq settings on a channel while things are going wrong.

The sounds engineers 'instrument' needs to be at his fingers tips. And the only format that accomplishes that is analogue. Digital is only useful in studio and recording environments where you have the benefit of extended setup time, pausing the performance, and doing over anything needed. That is a drastically different environment than a live event where there are no do overs, only trying to keep up.

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g'bye, Dick Rees

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Re: Digital mixer - pros and cons?
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2011, 02:03:17 PM »

I would never recommend a digital mixer for a live application. Yeah everyone always says you can have recallable scenes. But that's not the point...

In live events you need immediacy. I mean you need dedicated knobs and faders for every parameter. The last thing you want is to have to dial through screen based digital sub menus to go find the eq settings on a channel while things are going wrong.



I used to think the same way.  The vast number of sound professionals happily moving to digital kind of proves us wrong on that.  If it doesn't work for you, it doesn't work.  But for those who've had the time and opportunity to get up to speed on the digital desk of their choice, there's just no going back.

YMMV

Pro's and con's depend on the requirements of the particular situation.  CC's objection is common enough although somewhat obviated by the ability of the user to set up user-defined short-cuts to speed up common tasks. 
« Last Edit: November 17, 2011, 02:13:58 PM by dick rees »
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Brad Weber

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Re: Digital mixer - pros and cons?
« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2011, 03:02:46 PM »

As Dick said,  the pros and cons will often depend upon the specific application.  Some examples:
  • Scene recall can be a great benefit but if all you typically do with it is to recall the usual Sunday setup, it charting an analog console and manually setting it before the service really that big a deal?  Admittedly, being of an age where that was what you did for many years, it always surprises me when people present having to manual set a board as though it is some major undertaking.
  • Digital consoles may typically be more flexible in configuration, but maybe not easier to configure.  For one thing, one can walk up to an analog console and without touching a thing figure almost all of the related routing and assignments, with a digital console that is often not the case.  Nor is making a change.
  • Training is where for many churches I split the console operation into two pieces; the basic configuration and general operation.  For many churches there may be one or two underlying patching, routing, etc. configurations that get set and left, thus that level of console operation may not need to be addressed by all operators, only the normal operation.  That can greatly simplify training, however the downside is that it means that if something get inadvertently changed or needs to be changed those individuals may not know how to do it.
  • A smaller footprint may indeed be a critical benefit in some applications, but in others it doesn't matter.  If someone is replacing an existing console then the size may have little impact as long as it is not larger.
  • Onboard processing, particularly with the SC48, can be a significant advantage.  Unless you already have a bunch of favorite outboard processing that you'd still want to use or if having all that processing available might result in operators over applying it to the detriment of the end result, in which case the value is much less.
The point is that you probably need to address the pros and cons of digital versus analog mixers in that application rather than on a general basis.
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Randall Hyde

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Re: Digital mixer - pros and cons?
« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2011, 10:36:53 PM »

I would never recommend a digital mixer for a live application. Yeah everyone always says you can have recallable scenes. But that's not the point...
And I rarely use those on my console. Big deal to some people; I mostly do one-offs and festivals and other than storing mixes for the few acts that have managed to show up early, I just don't use them.

In a church, they could be nice. Particularly if they have different services with different types of music or if the youth group comes one and parties one night a week (of course, letting them near an SC48?).

Quote
In live events you need immediacy. I mean you need dedicated knobs and faders for every parameter. The last thing you want is to have to dial through screen based digital sub menus to go find the eq settings on a channel while things are going wrong.
I so agree with you here. I hate overloaded controls, especially input channel strip faders. I'm not a big fan of having to press a button to go between even two banks of faders.
I want every input channel strip, every aux return, every DCA/VCA, every group, and my masters all on separate faders that I can grab and adjust during any emergency without having to figure out whether I've got the correct bank selected.

I don't need a separate set of controls for dynamics, EQ, effects, and aux sends for *every* channel strip, but I do want a set of single-level controls that switch to a particular channel strip when I press a "select" button on that channel strip; yeah, it's functional overloading, but dealing with a massive number of knobs on the board (for each channel strip) is just as bad as having to press the "select" button on the channel.

Oh, an digital scribble strips on all physical controls. Viewing the parameters on a crowded (and often tiny) LCD is not for me.

Quote
The sounds engineers 'instrument' needs to be at his fingers tips. And the only format that accomplishes that is analogue. Digital is only useful in studio and recording environments where you have the benefit of extended setup time, pausing the performance, and doing over anything needed. That is a drastically different environment than a live event where there are no do overs, only trying to keep up.
Here I disagree with you a bit.
Not the part about the finger tips (I whole-heartedly agree there), but that this can only be accomplished with analog. I'm slowly putting together my own control surface (out of Mackie MCU, XT, and C4 control surfaces) for a digital live mixer and I'm slowly becoming happy with the result. Granted, the average person (particularly the OP, in this thread) probably won't have the software skills (which is my day job) to pull this off, but it *can* be done with digital.

However, with off-the-shelf digital boards, there will be issues.

BTW, my vote goes out to on-board processing as being a significant advantage. Being able to put dynamics on every channel, delays & reverbs on any arbitrary channel, and adding VST plug-in effects such as "Transient Designer" and an array of phase shifters, and other effects is mind-blowing.

However, let me also point out that training is a killer. Just about anyone can operate an analog board -- most analog boards work in a similar fashion and that's what everyone has learned. It takes some serious education to become proficient on a digital system and learning one digital board won't make you particularly proficient on another.  Fortunately, in a church setting, most of the configuration (the hard part to learn) is done once or by a specialized staff member (God help you when s/he leaves) and running the show can be done without quite as much education.
Cheers,
Randy Hyde
P.S. I use SAC, which I doubt I'd ever recommend for a church as the learning curve is *very* high.

« Last Edit: November 17, 2011, 10:38:57 PM by Randall Hyde »
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duane massey

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Re: Digital mixer - pros and cons?
« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2011, 11:22:28 PM »

I was a firm anti-digital FOH person until I got to play with an M7CL. Changed my opinion completely as far as user-friendly, especially in situations where you might not want 100's ok nobs, but do want live sliders for all channels.
I truly hated the earlier digital boards, but times and technology have changed.
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Duane Massey
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Frederik Rosenkjær

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Re: Digital mixer - pros and cons?
« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2011, 05:27:44 AM »

I would never recommend a digital mixer for a live application.

Heh - welcome to 1998!  :)

Of course I can't tell you how you feel and what you like for your workflow, but for me the time is over for analog consoles. I hate them I hate them I hate them. And yes - I grew up on them, and yes I have extensive experience with them and I still am forced to use them every now and again.

As for the OP:

Digital mixer - pros and cons?

A church that is a client has asked the question – what are the pros and cons of a digital mixer verses keeping their analog mixer. Their sound people are all for changing to digital it is the leadership that is asking the question. So I am trying to get other opinions on the subject.


I don't get it? Their sound people are all for it - then what's the problem? Aren't they the ones who should decide what they should be getting? Why are laypeople from the church sticking their noses in it?
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Brad Weber

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Re: Digital mixer - pros and cons?
« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2011, 08:00:24 AM »

I don't get it? Their sound people are all for it - then what's the problem? Aren't they the ones who should decide what they should be getting? Why are laypeople from the church sticking their noses in it?
I'm sure the church leadership would be all for it if the sound people were going to pay for it out of their own pockets.  Otherwise, it is probably because a) it is not just the sound people's church, b) it is probably not the only place the church has to potentially spend their money and c) those sound people have apparently been unable to demonstrate to the church leadership that a digital console is the right solution for that church.

I think an important aspect here is that nothing seems to have been mentioned in regards to the existing analog mixer based system relating to any problems or deficiencies.  So it at least seems like it is a situation of the sound people wanting to change to digital rather than of needing to do anything.  Without tying it to the actual application that comes across a bit as simply trying to help sell something they have been unable to convince the church leadership is warranted.  Unless that is the goal then it seems rather pointless to discuss this without being able to address it in terms of their particular situation, needs and goals, which have not been presented.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2011, 09:59:53 AM by Brad Weber »
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Re: Digital mixer - pros and cons?
« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2011, 08:00:24 AM »


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