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roland m300 or dm3200

m300
- 2 (66.7%)
dm3200
- 1 (33.3%)

Total Members Voted: 3

Voting closed: November 30, 2011, 07:45:37 PM


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Author Topic: Advice, suggestions welcome  (Read 9762 times)

Jason Adams

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Advice, suggestions welcome
« on: November 14, 2011, 11:51:36 PM »

We just started building our new sanctuary and i had a friend help me quote out some audio gear. He recommended the roland m300 with the digital snake. the system on paper looks great and i'm sure fits mosts situations but here's my dilema: i've started using a iMac (logic pro) with a focusrite saffire pro 40 firewire interface. i love the routing flexibility & clean audio i'm getting. the roland system suggested uses the reac protocal a proprietary one only for roland and it is only compatible with sonar. while i do also have a copy of sonar i installed bootcamp and fired up sonar but i don't like it cause it doesn't feel as smooth as osx. our imac is a little older so osx runs great with logic going and waves multirack feeding effects back, and the saffire interface going. trying to do all that in windows would kill it so i'd rather stick to mac. the roland system lists at $7890. after doing some extensive research i came up with this system that for the time being would serve our needs, integrate with what we have, has enough flexibility to upgrade if needed IF it will work as i assume. here's what i came up with tascam dm3200 with the if-fw (firewire) & if-cb (cobranet) expansion cards added and a whirlwind ds168t the total advertised price on all that is $5809 saving over $2k. question i have is will the whirlwind work just connected to the board because from info on whirlwinds site it says it's to be used with the ds168r but i'm assuming that's for  ad-da which doesn't fit what i'm trying to do. i really was wanting to go with a digital snake  in case anything ever happened it's cheaper to replace x feet of cat5 as opposed to x feet of a 24 or 32 or whatever ch snake. sorry if so long
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Jason Adams

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Tascam DM3200 question
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2011, 07:24:09 AM »

i really don't understand why the moderator locked my other thread, maybe i should just put it this way:

will the tascam dm3200 with a if-cb card in directly interface with a whirlwind ds168t  ???
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TJ (Tom) Cornish

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Re: Tascam DM3200 question
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2011, 09:06:15 AM »

i really don't understand why the moderator locked my other thread, maybe i should just put it this way:

will the tascam dm3200 with a if-cb card in directly interface with a whirlwind ds168t  ???
Usually threads are locked if your username isn't your real name.  Sometimes they don't get unlocked even after that's fixed.

It does appear that the DM3200 with the Cobranet card will interface with the Whirlwind digital snake, since gain is set at the stage box.

A couple thoughts for you:

Digital snakes are not inherently more reliable than analog ones.  If you're designing appropriate conduit runs in your new sanctuary where the snake will be run, I will bet you a nice steak dinner that a well implemented analog snake solution will last you longer than a digital snake, and be a lot less limiting.

The Whirlwind snake you mention is pretty off the beaten path, and has a major limitation compared to more integrated digital snake solutions like the Yamaha ES options, the A&H ILive, etc. in that you don't have control of channel input gain at the board - you have to walk up to the stagebox and make adjustments there.  This is pretty limiting, and I think is an unnecessary compromise if your only reason to put in a digital snake is concern over reliability of an analog snake.

Also, the Tascam DM series boards have never gained general acceptance in live sound, because they are awkward to use.  It's not that they can't be used, but there are some user interface things that are unfortunate.

Depending on your priorities and budget constraints, I would stick to one of the following:

If you can live without a control surface and mix using a computer or IPad, you can get into the Allen&Heath ILive system around your budget, depending on your IO needs.  This system can be expanded, and there are a lot of options for tapping of splits for monitors or recording.  If you want a physical surface, that will blow your budget.  You may be able to rationalize some of that cost by not having to put an analog snake in, though you will still want to put conduit in for future use.

If your channel count fits, you could get a Yamaha LS9-32 and some ADAT cards and do your recording split that way.

You may also want to check out the Presonus Studiolive series - they have a built-in firewire recording interface. 
« Last Edit: November 16, 2011, 01:55:04 PM by TJ (Tom) Cornish »
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Jason Adams

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Advice, suggestions welcome
« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2011, 03:44:42 PM »

Thanks Tom, I did not realize that. Well scratch that idea then. Right now we are recording sermons but I would like in the future to record live or do a cd. I would say that we probably only need the capability to record 8 ch's at a time but more wouldn't hurt. A control interface would be nice but I was just seeing that as a side bonus. I thought that a digital snake would b the way to go but if not then that's just how it is. I saw it as a cheaper option.  We looked at the presonus but think we switched to Roland because of the snake deal. I definitely want a digital board for the features of per ch processing. For a board and snake our budget is gonna b around $8k max because that is what was already quoted and I don't think there's much room above that.


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Dan Johnson

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Re: Advice, suggestions welcome
« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2011, 04:54:49 PM »

Thanks Tom, I did not realize that. Well scratch that idea then. Right now we are recording sermons but I would like in the future to record live or do a cd. I would say that we probably only need the capability to record 8 ch's at a time but more wouldn't hurt. A control interface would be nice but I was just seeing that as a side bonus. I thought that a digital snake would b the way to go but if not then that's just how it is. I saw it as a cheaper option.  We looked at the presonus but think we switched to Roland because of the snake deal. I definitely want a digital board for the features of per ch processing. For a board and snake our budget is gonna b around $8k max because that is what was already quoted and I don't think there's much room above that.
For $8K I would go with an analog snake and get a Yamaha LS9-32.  You'll have 16 analog outputs that can be setup as whatever kind of output you want (main outs, direct outs, aux mixes, matrices).  You will have to use some of the 16 outputs for your mains and monitors but can set the others up for recording or whatever else you want to do.  You didn't specify how many outputs you need for mains, monitors, or other mixes but I'm guessing you don't need a whole lot based on what you are already considering and the fact that you didn't state any specific needs as a criteria.
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Jason Adams

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Advice, suggestions welcome
« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2011, 06:46:15 PM »

Yeah sorry I def should clarify that. 2 mains for sure possible a ctr ch mono summed. 4 mon feeds would b nice using 3 now. Our musician are pretty picky so having the flexibility to customize each send is nice. Whatever board we go with I would like full integration with the Mac so if it's 32 ch's then I would like the capability to record all 32 ch's at the same time, but I def would like to stick with Mac. Snake wise if analog would prolly be 32 w/ 8 returns. We are gonna be using powered speakers so all those returns will def get used. Appreciate the ideas


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Dan Johnson

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Re: Advice, suggestions welcome
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2011, 06:58:38 PM »

Whatever board we go with I would like full integration with the Mac so if it's 32 ch's then I would like the capability to record all 32 ch's at the same time
You had said in a previous post that you probably would only need to record 8 channels at a time which is why I was talking about the omni outs on the LS9 as a possibility.  You can still do all the channels with the right output cards for the card slots as mentioned before.  Just raises the total cost a little bit.
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Jason Adams

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Advice, suggestions welcome
« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2011, 09:12:29 PM »

If its somethin that can b upgraded down the road that's fine. I got to thinking and just don't wanna b stuck with being limited in the future


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Jason Adams

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Re: Advice, suggestions welcome
« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2011, 07:58:48 AM »

For $8K I would go with an analog snake and get a Yamaha LS9-32.  You'll have 16 analog outputs that can be setup as whatever kind of output you want (main outs, direct outs, aux mixes, matrices).  You will have to use some of the 16 outputs for your mains and monitors but can set the others up for recording or whatever else you want to do.  You didn't specify how many outputs you need for mains, monitors, or other mixes but I'm guessing you don't need a whole lot based on what you are already considering and the fact that you didn't state any specific needs as a criteria.

dan,

where would i get a snake and ls9 for $8k, a lot of places don't advertise price but in another forum one guy says they cost $11k and that 's just for the board
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TJ (Tom) Cornish

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Re: Advice, suggestions welcome
« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2011, 09:38:48 AM »

dan,

where would i get a snake and ls9 for $8k, a lot of places don't advertise price but in another forum one guy says they cost $11k and that 's just for the board
The LS9 has gone up in price a bit, which is frustrating, but it's still available for much less than $11K.  If you're interested, post something in the marketplace asking for a quote.

Another option for you to consider, depending on your timeline, is the newly announced Yamaha 01v96i:
http://www.soundforums.net/content/617-Yamaha-01V96i-Mixer-Launched

I've used the original 01v96 boards for the last 8+ years now, and they are real workhorses that are still a fairly good value.
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TJ (Tom) Cornish

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Re: Advice, suggestions welcome
« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2011, 09:45:25 AM »

If its somethin that can b upgraded down the road that's fine. I got to thinking and just don't wanna b stuck with being limited in the future


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Be careful that your futureproofing doesn't "present-proof" you.  Everybody I've ever talked to is excited about recording a live multitracked performance of stuff, but 98% never try even after they've paid a bunch extra for equipment, and of the 2% that do try (I put myself in this category), 75% of the time they quit because it's REALLY hard to do well, and for some reason that great on-stage performance doesn't sound so great when played back.

I may be a little old-school, but I'm a big fan of dedicated recording decks instead of PC recording for normal 2-track stuff.  I have a SoundDevices 702T CF recorder, and it just works.  Send it any kind of signal in the universe and it will lock on and record.  There are cheaper versions like the Denon and Marantz decks and even cheaper versions like the Zoom handheld recorders that may be more reliable than a PC program.

There's nothing inherently wrong with computer recording, but I wouldn't build your mixer around it unless you're pretty serious.
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Dan Johnson

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Re: Advice, suggestions welcome
« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2011, 09:51:36 AM »

dan,

where would i get a snake and ls9 for $8k, a lot of places don't advertise price but in another forum one guy says they cost $11k and that 's just for the board
I haven't priced one in a long time so the price may have gone up.  As was mentioned already, you can post in the marketplace looking for dealer quotes or you can ask for advice on here about a good place to find a good price on one.  It very well may be more than $8k for the LS9 alone if the prices have gone up.
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g'bye, Dick Rees

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Re: Advice, suggestions welcome
« Reply #12 on: November 17, 2011, 10:42:20 AM »

Be careful that your futureproofing doesn't "present-proof" you.  Everybody I've ever talked to is excited about recording a live multitracked performance of stuff, but 98% never try even after they've paid a bunch extra for equipment, and of the 2% that do try (I put myself in this category), 75% of the time they quit because it's REALLY hard to do well, and for some reason that great on-stage performance doesn't sound so great when played back.

I may be a little old-school, but I'm a big fan of dedicated recording decks instead of PC recording for normal 2-track stuff.  I have a SoundDevices 702T CF recorder, and it just works.  Send it any kind of signal in the universe and it will lock on and record.  There are cheaper versions like the Denon and Marantz decks and even cheaper versions like the Zoom handheld recorders that may be more reliable than a PC program.

There's nothing inherently wrong with computer recording, but I wouldn't build your mixer around it unless you're pretty serious.

I agree with these points.  The recording option is something we all kind of dream about, but when it comes down to it, a good, live stereo mix is about as good as it gets.  Combining two tracks of material from the board and two tracks of live house sound (time aligned either from the get-go or post performance) will get you very close to "as good as it gets".  It does take practice or a dedicated (second) record operator, but it's likely the most efficient use of gear, time and talent.

One reason for this is that in most live performance situations, miked inputs are just not "discrete" enough for post-production.  The presence of more than one source in your mic inputs means that there will be a host of problems in any attempted track mix-down.  Turn up a vocal and you get more drums and guitar along with it.  In addition, there will be phase anomalies  induced when changing levels in mix-down due to time/reflection issues.  So you can spend a lot of time and  money for the post-production mix capability only to find that your situation is not amenable to "studio" type recording.  If......IF..... you can emulate studio conditions and achieve a high degree of isolation on all inputs, then you MIGHT be able to take full advantage of the multi-track features.

But in the end, all that time, money and training gets you maybe 5-10% better than a good, live 4-track recording as referenced above.........depending upon the level of the ensemble performance in the first place.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2011, 10:50:10 AM by dick rees »
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Brad Weber

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Re: Advice, suggestions welcome
« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2011, 11:06:28 AM »

Be careful that your futureproofing doesn't "present-proof" you.  Everybody I've ever talked to is excited about recording a live multitracked performance of stuff, but 98% never try even after they've paid a bunch extra for equipment, and of the 2% that do try (I put myself in this category), 75% of the time they quit because it's REALLY hard to do well, and for some reason that great on-stage performance doesn't sound so great when played back.
I agree with this and am a little wary that you seem to be maybe focusing a bit too much on the recording aspect and not enough on the live sound side.

Yeah sorry I def should clarify that. 2 mains for sure possible a ctr ch mono summed. 4 mon feeds would b nice using 3 now. Our musician are pretty picky so having the flexibility to customize each send is nice. Whatever board we go with I would like full integration with the Mac so if it's 32 ch's then I would like the capability to record all 32 ch's at the same time, but I def would like to stick with Mac. Snake wise if analog would prolly be 32 w/ 8 returns. We are gonna be using powered speakers so all those returns will def get used.
This is sort of what I mean, you seem to be looking at details on the recording while perhaps not yet having a complete concept for the overall system.  In fact it is interesting that this far into the discussion and we know a number of details regarding the recording aspect but this seems to be the only discussion of the general application, the number of inputs, the FOH and monitoring outputs, the physical space, the system processing and so on.  I'm also a little concerned that you have apparently not settled on speakers, mixers, etc. but noted that "We just started building our new sanctuary..." which suggests the physical construction is already underway without the audio system having been an integrated part of the building design.

So just because I've seen it happen before, and caught myself doing it, a reminder to not get lost in the details or forget to focus on the 'bigger picture' and the priorities for the church in general.  And also don't neglect to prioritize aspects of the system that have to be integrated into or coordinated with the building construction or the infrastructure already defined.
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Jason Adams

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Re: Advice, suggestions welcome
« Reply #14 on: November 17, 2011, 07:23:35 PM »

i understand all these points on recording and have experience recording. a recording project probably would consist of doing one or two tracks at a time,with the exception of drums of course, ie start with drums & keys and add vocals in after. but would like to experiment with live sound to see if i can get enough separation with gates etc etc. the speakers are already chosen, they will be qsc kw181 subs, kw 121 monitors, & k10 mains. currently we use approx 16 inputs & 6 outs. i like computer based recording cause it's easier for me to make every recording sound the same level. one pastor likes to hold the mic at his heart so it takes a little more processing to bring it up to where the other pastor is. yes i'm focused more on the recording/computer interface side because i've been running sound for years and im not worried about live sound i'm pretty sure i've got that aspect covered. tomorrow the conduit is getting put in place and slab is getting poured next week, Lord willing. waiting on word to get with subcontractor so we can go over what our requirements are for the sound system/video system. proposed speaker setup is lrc mains w/ 2 subs, & 4-5 mon feeds. 2 line 6 xd-v70 wrls mics & shure sm 58's. phys space a little larger than a basketball size court seating area. stage & sound booth not incorporated in that space. so my main concern at present is what is the best board i can get to integrate into current recording setup and add value not take away. as it is now the primary signals go to my focusrite first so i get a pristine recording signal then to mixer. works well for the quieter speakers i can boost up the gain a little cut the board gain so my recording is a little hotter, still needing normalized and volume boosted but more signal to work with. if i had a digital board i would have gates, compression, built in effects, as well as better eq on all inputs, and eq and maybe compression on output depending on board. a digital snake would be nice for running wire but not married to it if the board doesn't support it.
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g'bye, Dick Rees

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Re: Advice, suggestions welcome
« Reply #15 on: November 17, 2011, 07:35:56 PM »

i understand all these points on recording and have experience recording....... but would like to experiment with live sound to see if i can get enough separation with gates etc etc.


Any bleed will still be there when the gate opens, compromising the mixability of the track.  Not only that, but the difference between closed and open gate will be just as or more audible than an un-gated track.

Quote
tif i had a digital board i would have gates, compression, built in effects, as well as better eq on all inputs, and eq and maybe compression on output depending on board.

For the recording side of things you won't want to apply much or any processing as it can't be undone once it's applied.  Good, clean dry tracks are the object here.  Anything else will compromise the mix.
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Frank DeWitt

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Re: Advice, suggestions welcome
« Reply #16 on: November 17, 2011, 07:47:47 PM »

Between wanting digital features (effects, scenes, ETC) wanting to record, and wanting to use your focusrite saffire pro 40 and your budget, you are describing a SAC system (Software Audio Pro)  It's PC based, but the windows OS is WAY in the background.  First and foremost it is a mixer that supports either the same brand recording software or reaper. Both will record every channel in the mix.  Reaper is $70

Frank
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Jason Adams

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Re: Advice, suggestions welcome
« Reply #17 on: November 17, 2011, 08:12:27 PM »

Between wanting digital features (effects, scenes, ETC) wanting to record, and wanting to use your focusrite saffire pro 40 and your budget, you are describing a SAC system (Software Audio Pro)  It's PC based, but the windows OS is WAY in the background.  First and foremost it is a mixer that supports either the same brand recording software or reaper. Both will record every channel in the mix.  Reaper is $70

Frank

i thought i mentioned it but maybe not, the focusrite is on loan, not a permanent part of the setup. i looked at SAC but not seriously. just don't think it's up my alley but will look at again
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Jason Adams

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Advice, suggestions welcome
« Reply #18 on: November 28, 2011, 02:07:14 PM »

Just wanted to say thanks to all for advice & info. It looks like I'll be going with a presonus sl 24.4.2. I was informed yesterday my budget shrunk from ~20k to around 12. I'm lucky to be getting that because it seemed they were pretty set on an analog board that they could get for around 1500. So I am back to the drawering board as far as speakers etc I saw some snakes in the marketplace I hope are still available. Wish me luck.
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Sidney.Pilien

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Re: Advice, suggestions welcome
« Reply #19 on: November 28, 2011, 07:08:56 PM »


Hey Jason,
Here's my 2 cents worth.

 You want to use external mic pre's to bypass the board's pre's for pristine audio? For $459 + what difference if any in audio will you get over stock pre's at that price? Before investing in an external pre, connect it to whatever board you will eventually get and see  what difference if any you hear if it's worth the money.







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Jason Adams

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Advice, suggestions welcome
« Reply #20 on: November 29, 2011, 09:54:25 AM »

Only using the focusrite at the moment because the audio from the behringer SUX. In the new setup the audio will go from the board to the computer. I've already stated the focusrite was temporary and not a permanent solution.
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Advice, suggestions welcome
« Reply #20 on: November 29, 2011, 09:54:25 AM »


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