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[Jeffhtg (Jeff Kenney)]

My "club" rig contains 8 Yorkville LS1208's for bottoms that have served me well. Mostly using for electronic nights where the 'boomy' ls1208 can be tamed to really provide a great amount of bang for buck. Going low is important - and these have done a good job.

I have an opportunity to change the rig.. get something new.. and as most of you probably know... we can't resist these opportunities sometimes. So as easy as it is to sell something to someone else.. I have to think about what my next step is and I am definatley my worst critic.

my thoughts and not a prepared proposal.

1. Current setup is : KF650's over 8 ls1208s. The 1208's are powered by 4x bridged QSC PLX2502's (2 subs per amp). Proc is dolby lake or dbx 260 depending on what top rack is being used.

2. Power requirements are pretty much 120v 15amp edison plugs are a must. 4 or 5 circuits max. We use multiple venues so 4 is preferable. (this really limits what we can use)

3. I don't want a sidegrade. I need to improve output, quality, and or size.

4. Cost is a factor - but most real subs are within reach of cost.


So here are some contenders and my random thoughts

DBH218 looks nice.. but I can probably only buy 4 (because they would almost certainly need powersoft k6's to run well).. that is about the limit of my budget. 2 per side is not high enough to put kf650's on. Also I have a hard time believing 4 will be enough..

TH118 (6 or is a contender but the impedance of the box hurts my power ability. How much better is the tapped horn than a horn? Will 6 th118s have equal output to 8 ls1208s? They seem like they may on paper. That would be nice.. I would be puzzled with what to power them with for under $10k. Also never really heard these in real world.. I know what they SHOULD sound like.. but I'm worried they may be to "hi-fi" for dance music.

Martin WSX - Love this box.. 3 per side would probably be all I can do.. seems like more of a side grade than any.

LABS - ( a serious contender... but stacking 4 high (on the side) may be a bit of a pain in the arse (3 high is not tall enough) k6's on power again may be the best solution. Seems more of a side grade than an upgrade.

Powersoft K6 - The big reluctance with all of these is the efficiency. In my current config I have a good electrical setup. I also am making use of 4x 1800watts of circuits. The k6 is a fantastic amp. But I have a hard time agreeing that using just 2x 1800 watts of circuits is a smart thing to do. I know you can configure down the amp for what you are using.. and have used these a bit.. BUT I hate to waste the other 3600 watts of 120 volt I have available :/ 

There has got to be a better solution.  Any input?

[duane massey]

Jeff, where are you located?

[Jeffhtg (Jeff Kenney)]

Jeff, where are you located?

I'm in Orlando.. but I'm usually all over the place if there is something I should take a look at.

[Randall Hyde]

TH118 (6 or is a contender but the impedance of the box hurts my power ability. How much better is the tapped horn than a horn? Will 6 th118s have equal output to 8 ls1208s? They seem like they may on paper. That would be nice.. I would be puzzled with what to power them with for under $10k. Also never really heard these in real world.. I know what they SHOULD sound like.. but I'm worried they may be to "hi-fi" for dance music.

No idea what they cost, but if they don't have to move much, you might look at the TH418 cabinets. Very efficient (though very heavy; not a good choice for portable setups).

BTW, "per side" is always scary when talking about subs. You should try to position your subs all together so they couple and the comb filtering doesn't kill you. If you've got ls1208 cabs stack up on both sides, try putting them all together and see if that doesn't improve things (outside of power alley).
cheers,
Randy Hyde

[Doug Fowler]

BTW, "per side" is always scary when talking about subs. You should try to position your subs all together so they couple and the comb filtering doesn't kill you.

I'm pretty sure Jeff knows WTF he's doing.

"Per side" is still the standard way of doing things when you don't have control of where your subs can be placed.   Barricades, etc.....

[Ivan Beaver]

TH118 (6 or is a contender but the impedance of the box hurts my power ability.

The TH118 can be ordered in either 4 or 8 ohms.

If unspecified-the standard is 4 ohms.

[Ivan Beaver]

BTW, "per side" is always scary when talking about subs. You should try to position your subs all together so they couple and the comb filtering doesn't kill you. If you've got ls1208 cabs stack up on both sides, try putting them all together and see if that doesn't improve things (outside of power alley).
cheers,
Randy Hyde

\
People often automatically assume that a center cluster is always best.  But it depends on the particular situation.

Agreed that a single cluster will have less combfiltering-OUTSIDE. 

However that does not always make it better.  Sometimes 2 stacks (1 each side) will offer a more even "spread" of bass throughout the room-despite the power alley and interference the spacing provides.

With a center cluster-it will be really loud in the middle up front.  This may be what someone is looking for.  Others don't want to "plaster" the people up front.  Spreading them out will often help this.

ANd when you look at the models-most of them are only 2d and don't have the various reflective surfaces turned on.  Once you put the subs inside a real room-even a single sub-there are ALL SORTS of hot spots and dead spots-depending on freq and location.

An often overlooked thing called room modes-is simply ignored.
If you want to experience it for real-take a SINGLE sub (that should be best right?) and put it someplace in a room.  Put in a 50 or 60Hz tone-doesn't need to be loud-just loud enough to be heard good.

Now walk around. And unless you are outside or in a very large room-if you come back and tell me that it was nice and even I will call anybody a LIER.  The room modes will DOMINATE the response.  You may find that a couple of feet in front of the sub there is little to no sound.  It will vary all over the place.

Now change freq by 5-10Hz.  Now you will notice the high and low spots have all "moved around".

So the concept of a single source radiating out goes to pieces.

You HAVE to look at the WHOLE picture-not just a single piece of it.

Simple concepts often have simple-wrong-answers.

[duane massey]

Yep, most of the installs I do have little or choice on sub location(s). In perfect world the sound system take precedence over everything else. In my world I have to fight sometimes just to get subs into the package. You do the best you can with what choices you are given.

[Jeffhtg (Jeff Kenney)]

The TH118 can be ordered in either 4 or 8 ohms.

If unspecified-the standard is 4 ohms.

Thats good news - and really makes electrical config more acceptable for this particular need. Altho my concerns that the Danley stuff may just be "too good". A conversation I have had with many of you about larger deployments.. as even the largest of our shows are still using rather old technology when it comes to subwoofers. Ivan one of these days I want a demo of 36 danley subs

As to the center cluster.. this is really not possible with these types of shows.. there is no raised stage or ability to put subs in the "middle" as they are DJ shows and a DJ is there without significant elevation.  L/R configuration is for reinforcement only.

[Jay Barracato]

\
People often automatically assume that a center cluster is always best.  But it depends on the particular situation.


With a center cluster-it will be really loud in the middle up front.  This may be what someone is looking for.  Others don't want to "plaster" the people up front.  Spreading them out will often help this.

I guess this is the payback for all the shows where we have to fight stage spill in FOH, but I usually find the amount of wash back onto the stage unacceptable with center clustered subs, if no attempt is made at arraying them.

I actually have a strong preference for flown subs. Not everything is about maximum output.

[Jeffrey Knorr - JRKLabs.com]

On paper, it would take 6 TH118's (at ~22kw) to keep up with 4 DBH218's (at ~28kw).  Do you want to move less, bigger boxes or more, smaller boxes?  Which is more scalable for you?

I'm a firm believer in Tapped Horns but the Danley folks even say the DBH218 is killer.  My money would be on the DBH218 going lower (especially when arrayed).

I'm not sure that I helped.

Jeff

P.S. buy scaffold or fly the tops

[Randall Hyde]

I guess this is the payback for all the shows where we have to fight stage spill in FOH, but I usually find the amount of wash back onto the stage unacceptable with center clustered subs, if no attempt is made at arraying them.

I actually have a strong preference for flown subs. Not everything is about maximum output.

Yes, flown sounds much better in many cases.
Someday I hope to graduate to the big boys and work with flown subs; the liability is just to great at the level I'm working at now.

BTW, just switching to cardiod subs using 8 JBL SRX 728s this year. Hoping that cleans up the stage mud versus the 4 cabinets I've been using this past year. Definitely stage volume has been a big issue for me.
cheers,
Randy Hyde

[John Chiara]

I'm pretty sure Jeff knows WTF he's doing.

"Per side" is still the standard way of doing things when you don't have control of where your subs can be placed.   Barricades, etc.....

"Per side" happens to me 90% of the time on a small-medium size shows...but seriously, this last season I did a bunch of 700-1000 seat outdoor amphitheater type setups and in all of them the "per side" setup yielded superior results. Also in 3-400 seat indoor/outdoor fair type pavilions where the setup puts the stage along a long wall...or other setups where wide horizontal coverage is needed. Most center sub arrays have serious dropoff at a relatively small angle off axis in structures this size.

[Jeffhtg (Jeff Kenney)]

On paper, it would take 6 TH118's (at ~22kw) to keep up with 4 DBH218's (at ~28kw).  Do you want to move less, bigger boxes or more, smaller boxes?  Which is more scalable for you?

I'm a firm believer in Tapped Horns but the Danley folks even say the DBH218 is killer.  My money would be on the DBH218 going lower (especially when arrayed).

I'm not sure that I helped.

Jeff

P.S. buy scaffold or fly the tops

Thank you for 1 person having a on topic post..
I'm really leaning towards 6 TH118's since they would have the height I need for tops.. scaff doesn't fit in the same footprint and I think the DBH are gonna be in a different power class than I can feasibly use on a regular basis.

[Ivan Beaver]

Thank you for 1 person having a on topic post..
I'm really leaning towards 6 TH118's since they would have the height I need for tops.. scall doesn't fit in the same footprint and I think the DBH are gonna be in a different power class than I can feasibly use on a regular basis.

As usual in audio there are a lot of things to consider.

How you use them is a biggie.  The TH118's are much easier to transport-I guy does it easlity, while the DBH218 really needs 2 guys-if you are going to be laying them down/stacking etc.

The Th118's will stack taller with less boxes (great if you are putting tops on top of them). 3 per side-(laying on their sides stacked up) is  pretty serious output. It would take more of the DBH218's to get to the same height-take more labor-more truck space etc.

However 3 DBH218's are going to have a good bit more "get up and go" than  3 Th118's.

I were to go back into the rental business and do the same sort of gigs I used to do-( a wide variety of styles/sized-venues) I would choose the Th118-if for no other reason-for portability and scaleability.  I could easily use 1 or 8 per side as needed.

[Jeffhtg (Jeff Kenney)]

As usual in audio there are a lot of things to consider.

How you use them is a biggie.  The TH118's are much easier to transport-I guy does it easlity, while the DBH218 really needs 2 guys-if you are going to be laying them down/stacking etc.

The Th118's will stack taller with less boxes (great if you are putting tops on top of them). 3 per side-(laying on their sides stacked up) is  pretty serious output. It would take more of the DBH218's to get to the same height-take more labor-more truck space etc.

However 3 DBH218's are going to have a good bit more "get up and go" than  3 Th118's.

I were to go back into the rental business and do the same sort of gigs I used to do-( a wide variety of styles/sized-venues) I would choose the Th118-if for no other reason-for portability and scaleability.  I could easily use 1 or 8 per side as needed.

My concern is that 6 TH118's won't have near as much SPL as 8 LS1208's... 6 DBH's are not in my budget (or power budget) so its not really a fair comparison.

Also this is specifically for EDM - so we are gonna bang the heck out of them.. and they way it looks power configuration wise we probably can only get about 1800 watts a box... which isn't exactly as much power as I should have. Altho from my experience with your products before the tapped horns have better-than-real-life sensitivity.

The labs on the other hand would be closer to their power range.. they are just a much larger, heavier, hard to lift box... and I could have 8 of them.

I'm also kind of looking around to see what plans exist these days for other horn projects that may fit the bill.  I almost think having something that is ferrite with high sensitivity would be preferrably (thinking 1000watt RMS) on a single 18". Everyone seems to be going big power - and I can't really do big power in this particular scenario.

[Ivan Beaver]

My concern is that 6 TH118's won't have near as much SPL as 8 LS1208's... 6 DBH's are not in my budget (or power budget) so its not really a fair comparison.

Also this is specifically for EDM - so we are gonna bang the heck out of them.. and they way it looks power configuration wise we probably can only get about 1800 watts a box... which isn't exactly as much power as I should have. Altho from my experience with your products before the tapped horns have better-than-real-life sensitivity.

The labs on the other hand would be closer to their power range.. they are just a much larger, heavier, hard to lift box... and I could have 8 of them.

It is hard say how the output (both level and low freq extension) would stand up-without accurate measurements of the LS1208.

One way you could get an idea is to look at the measurements from the MD sub shootout a number of years ago.  There was a LS1208 and a Th115 there.  While not abosolute-they are comparative-and then you could comapre the differences to the differences between the Th115 and the Th118.  It would get you close anyway.

I have the files, but cannot directly help you as the measurements were done in Smaart 6.  I never got that version (only 3,5,7)

I'm also kind of looking around to see what plans exist these days for other horn projects that may fit the bill.  I almost think having something that is ferrite with high sensitivity would be preferrably (thinking 1000watt RMS) on a single 18". Everyone seems to be going big power - and I can't really do big power in this particular scenario.

You might want to "rethink" the power issue a little bit.  Just because a particular loudspeaker can "handle" a particular power does not mean tha you HAVE to use that much power.  As long as you keep the amps out of clip, running cabinets with less than max power will only  result in a longer life.

[Jeffrey Knorr - JRKLabs.com]

Jeff,

Contact Langston Holland, he's also down in FL and knows how to get the most out of TH118's.  He's powering them with Lab Gruppen PLM14000's I believe running ONE TH118 per channel.

I would think that 6 TH118's will do what you're looking for in less space. 

Another suggestion would be trying some high powered amps on your existing LS1208's.  In my experience with bridged PLX's, they didn't seem to perform up to my expectations (especially when the AC power is poor).  Try something like QSC PL380's at a minimum.

Jeff

[drew gandy]

The Th118's will stack taller with less boxes (great if you are putting tops on top of them). 3 per side-(laying on their sides stacked up) is  pretty serious output. It would take more of the DBH218's to get to the same height-take more labor-more truck space etc.

Aren't both boxes the same width?  That means that 3 boxes of either (stacked on their sides) will be the same height?  Maybe I'm not understanding the stacking technique?

[Ivan Beaver]

Aren't both boxes the same width?  That means that 3 boxes of either (stacked on their sides) will be the same height?  Maybe I'm not understanding the stacking technique?

Yeah my wording was a bit "off".

I was thinking from a price standpoint.  Yes they are both 22.5" tall.  For the same dollar standpoint, the DBH218's would not be as tall or from an output standpoint-for an equal level, the TH118's would be taller.

I guess it depends on how you look at it.

[drew gandy]

Yeah my wording was a bit "off".

Mixing metaphors till it's a dark and powerful soup.

[Jeffhtg (Jeff Kenney)]

Jeff,

Contact Langston Holland, he's also down in FL and knows how to get the most out of TH118's.  He's powering them with Lab Gruppen PLM14000's I believe running ONE TH118 per channel.

I would think that 6 TH118's will do what you're looking for in less space. 

Another suggestion would be trying some high powered amps on your existing LS1208's.  In my experience with bridged PLX's, they didn't seem to perform up to my expectations (especially when the AC power is poor).  Try something like QSC PL380's at a minimum.

Jeff

I disagree. I think the 2502 is a great watt per dollar amp for many subs in the 2000'ish watt powerrange.. I've used them on quite a few diff subs with great results..  I could probably squeeze another 100 or 200 watts out of these boxes - but there is no efficient way to really do that. The amps are ridiculous amounts of money more than what I have into this. It wouldn't make sense.

3 TH118's are the correct height - as are 3 ls1208s... 2 db218's are not - and that is the main disqualifying point about them.

[ProSoundWeb Community]