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[Nick McBride]

We have a small 30 person church choir that we're trying to work out some mic issues, and we're having trouble placing the monitors in the right area.

We are currently using some hanging choir mics, but they are picking up the floor monitors, which causes all sorts of issues.

The choir area is so small, it's hard to position things back further, so everything is practically right on top of each other. The monitors are currently positioned at the corners of the choir area, about 4-6 feet from the front row. They face inward a little, and are angled up. With this positioning, the monitors are practically pointed at the hanging choir mics. In this configuration, the choir mics, because of their pickup pattern pickup all the monitor sound. I was wondering if it would be reasonable in this situation to get some smaller monitors and ceiling-mount them behind the choir mics (about 5-8 feet)? I'm sure the other choir members would be able to hear the monitors better this way anyways.


The other part of the problem is that the people in the choir want the sound track that they're singing to SO LOUD, we don't even have to play the soundtrack through the mains. Kinda stupid if you ask me, considering at that point ever person is singing for themselves, and can't even hear each other to harmonize.


Here's what I was thinking (red area being the new ceiling-mounted monitor). Remove the floor monitors. Don't laugh :-)

Can I even have the monitor behind the mics like this?

[TJ (Tom) Cornish]

We have a small 30 person church choir that we're trying to work out some mic issues, and we're having trouble placing the monitors in the right area.

We are currently using some hanging choir mics, but they are picking up the floor monitors, which causes all sorts of issues.

The choir area is so small, it's hard to position things back further, so everything is practically right on top of each other. The monitors are currently positioned at the corners of the choir area, about 4-6 feet from the front row. They face inward a little, and are angled up. With this positioning, the monitors are practically pointed at the hanging choir mics. In this configuration, the choir mics, because of their pickup pattern pickup all the monitor sound. I was wondering if it would be reasonable in this situation to get some smaller monitors and ceiling-mount them behind the choir mics (about 5-8 feet)? I'm sure the other choir members would be able to hear the monitors better this way anyways.


The other part of the problem is that the people in the choir want the sound track that they're singing to SO LOUD, we don't even have to play the soundtrack through the mains. Kinda stupid if you ask me, considering at that point ever person is singing for themselves, and can't even hear each other to harmonize.


Here's what I was thinking (red area being the new ceiling-mounted monitor). Remove the floor monitors. Don't laugh :-)

Can I even have the monitor behind the mics like this?

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The basic physics in play here is "the loudest thing at the mic wins."  If the pickup pattern of your mics is cardioid then a ceiling mounted monitor might indeed help.  If they are omni, then your problem may even be worse, as from your drawing it looks like that would put the monitors even closer to the mic.

You mention the choir wants the backing track so loud you don't need it in the mains.  Have you walked around the choir to hear what they're hearing?  Having the monitor on the floor at the feet of the first row may not be the ideal way to get maximum sound to the ears of the choir.  It may also be a people problem in that their monitor expectations are unreasonable, but you won't know until you investigate.

The other solution I suppose is 30 SM58s. 

[Brad Weber]

While rather obvious, you aren't running any of the choir mics to the choir monitors are you?

I have known people that had to position and aim mics so as to minimize their interaction with the monitors rather than to optimize their pickup of the choir.  In your case you look to be doing the same thing by moving the monitor to be off-axis of the mics (as TJ said, assuming them to be cardioid) and to hopefully be able to be run at a lower level.  The issues becomes if those gains will more than offset being closer to the ceiling mics.

Some other things to potentially consider.  What speakers are you using and how does their pattern relate to covering the choir and keeping sound off the ceiling and walls?  Are you possibly using more microphones than necessary?  Might there be an echo or other acoustical artifact that they are trying to overcome by running the monitors louder?  Are they potentially playing the soundtrack loud in order to hear certain aspects of it and might EQing the monitor signal to emphasize whatever they are looking for and reduce other components help?  The latter may be especially relevant as the pattern of the speakers and microphone may not hold at lower frequencies so moving the monitor closer to the mics may require limiting the low frequency content in the monitors.

[Nick McBride]

All really good suggestions. So far I've been observing the issue from the sound booth, but am working up to making some changes come this weekend. I know the monitors are WAY too loud for the people in the front row of the choir, so I understand that first off, this is a placement issue.

We are NOT running the choir mics through the monitors (infinite loop :-) )

I will also have to double check the ceiling mics to see what brand/model they are, to make sure they are cardioid.  The drawing is a little off-scale on the horizontal axis, as to where we would have more distance between the front-mic and monitor on the ceiling (hopefully).  Would there be a general rule of thumb for this distance?

Also, if the ceiling-mounted monitors are an ultimate fail, I was considering adding a 2nd set of monitors on stands further back in the choir, that way I can get even sound distribution, and hopefully be able to turn everything down.

As Brad pointed out, we are probably using too many mics. From what I read, 1 mic is sufficient to pickup a good mix if it is properly placed. The frontage of our choir is less than 20', and we're not even that deep. Whoever put 3 mics in there I think was just adding them to see how much they could annoy us.

Here's a view from the sound room:

[Kyle Waters]

We are fixing to do the same thing you're talking about doing.  Our sanctuary is much different ( arent they all) We have a choir loft that will hold around 120, but we have the same basic problem as you do. We have the choir monitors on the floor blowing up almost strait into the choir mics.  We use hanging choir mics also.  We have a pretty high ceiling above with cat walks so we (i say we a sound contractor) are going to hang two QSC KLA line array speakers above the choir blowing straight into the backs of our choir mics,  since they are cardioid this should work very well.  Line array speakers were the perfect choice for this due to the small vertical throw and massive horizontal coverage. 

[Brad Weber]

We have a pretty high ceiling above with cat walks so we (i say we a sound contractor) are going to hang two QSC KLA line array speakers above the choir blowing straight into the backs of our choir mics,  since they are cardioid this should work very well.  Line array speakers were the perfect choice for this due to the small vertical throw and massive horizontal coverage.

Are you basing that on the nominal 18 degree per box coverage or on some more detailed analysis?  Whether a two box array or two single boxes, the cutoff frequency for that degree of directionality may be fairly high and you will probably have a much larger vertical pattern at low frequencies.  At the same time, the KLA is a 90 degree nominal horizontal pattern, no different than many 'point source' boxes, and not the 100 to 120 degree pattern that you may be assuming.  And being powered you will have to get power to them, which is not always easy in existing spaces.  Before investing somewhere around $5,200 in those boxes plus having to get power to them you might want to verify that they will really do what you seem to think they will.


Also, just so there is no confusion, this is a situation where 'cardioid' microphones are significantly different than 'hypercardioid', 'supercardioid', etc.  The goal is maximizing the rejection in the direction of the speaker so this approach can be less than optimal with microphones that may be quite directional but that exhibit back or side lobes.

[Nick Bair]

I did the same exact thing for our 60-person choir. I had some old Peavey fill speakers laying around so I flew them above the choir. Cardioid choir mics should not pick up much sound from these and you will find that people in the back two rows will hear them better at a lower volume. Just make sure that the angle does not cause reflection off of the back walls. Properly angled, most of the sound should hit the choir or the carpeting.

Sent from my Nexus S 4G using Tapatalk

[Nick McBride]

Thanks for all the great responses. Can anyone recommend a pair of speakers to try?  First off, they'd have to come in white (or be paintable), and be largely unobtrusive.  They'd also need to be easily mountable with a bracket or something, as there is no room to attach any cables and fly them. I remember seeing something like a 80W JBL speaker set that was indoor/outdoor, and had a bracket, but that bookmark is on another PC :-).

Maybe something like these:
http://www.communitypro.com/index.php/product-list/105-io-series

or

http://www.communitypro.com/index.php/product-list/377-distributed-design-series-surface-mount

in the 8" format.

[g'bye, Dick Rees]

Thanks for all the great responses. Can anyone recommend a pair of speakers to try?  First off, they'd have to come in white (or be paintable), and be largely unobtrusive.  They'd also need to be easily mountable with a bracket or something, as there is no room to attach any cables and fly them. I remember seeing something like a 80W JBL speaker set that was indoor/outdoor, and had a bracket, but that bookmark is on another PC :-).

Maybe something like these:
http://www.communitypro.com/index.php/product-list/105-io-series

or

http://www.communitypro.com/index.php/product-list/377-distributed-design-series-surface-mount

in the 8" format.

You needn't spend a ton of money on this application.  You'll want to find something that is designed to bracket mount/fly, avoiding jury rigging anything that will be over a public space.  You'll also want to match the (nominal) coverage angle to the space and the desired focus of sound.  Keep in mind (as has been mentioned) that the angle of dispersion cited in specs only goes down to a certain frequency, whereupon the pattern expands as the frequency gets lower.

I'd avoid the "surface mount" speaker you lined as it has a very wide, conical dispersion and will give a lot of reflections right "out of the box" when mounted close to a boundary.  Otherwise it looks like you're on the right road......

[Kyle Waters]

Are you basing that on the nominal 18 degree per box coverage or on some more detailed analysis?  Whether a two box array or two single boxes, the cutoff frequency for that degree of directionality may be fairly high and you will probably have a much larger vertical pattern at low frequencies.  At the same time, the KLA is a 90 degree nominal horizontal pattern, no different than many 'point source' boxes, and not the 100 to 120 degree pattern that you may be assuming.  And being powered you will have to get power to them, which is not always easy in existing spaces.  Before investing somewhere around $5,200 in those boxes plus having to get power to them you might want to verify that they will really do what you seem to think they will.


Also, just so there is no confusion, this is a situation where 'cardioid' microphones are significantly different than 'hypercardioid', 'supercardioid', etc.  The goal is maximizing the rejection in the direction of the speaker so this approach can be less than optimal with microphones that may be quite directional but that exhibit back or side lobes.

Thanks for the concern.  Im not specking these boxes for the horizontal coverage, but for the lack of vertical.  At the height these speakers will be hung,  the vertical coverage will be perfect for the three rows of choir im trying to monitor.  This active solution acutally works out cheaper for us than a passive option. (no large amp or speaker processor) We have good isolated power to the cat walks so power isnt an issue.  I have specked in two boxes to deal with the horizonal coverage and plan to hang them in a crossing fashion. (left side catwalk covering right side choir)  We have already gotten a demo from our vendor and have placed them in the catwalk for a test.  It worked very good.  We are using crown cm 31 choir mics that are supercardioid,  they have a lobe to the rear,  but something has to give.  We hope to move to earthworks choir mics in the future. Our current monitor setup hits our mics at a much for sensitive area than this would.  I know you have to weigh the pros with the cons. This seems to be our best solution and we are quite happy with the test run and plan to move forward with it.

[ProSoundWeb Community]