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Author Topic: Pro rack house / LS9  (Read 17525 times)

Steve Payne

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Re: Pro rack house / LS9
« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2011, 12:19:50 PM »

      Well, I guess I need to weigh in here.  I have real world experience with the tools and situations you describe.  Digital has a lot to offer, most of which can be measured in terms of  convenience.  If you are looking for exceptional sound quality and intuitive, quick interface you have to spend a LOT of money on a digital product to come close to what you will get from APB.  A Yamaha LS-9 is not a high end digital product.  It is a dumbed down M7CL.  I have owned an M7CL.  The difference in sound between an M7 and an APB Spectra, ProDesk or ProRack console (I own them all) is night and day.  In fact, I have just bought a pair of Soundcraft Vi4 consoles.  A big (but not only) reason I decided on these consoles was because they sound really good.  Guess what, they are very powerful, cost a small fortune, but don't SOUND and better than my APBs.

    I don't think I saw where you said if you were doing IEMs or not.  If you are, the sound quality will really be appreciated.  In my opinion, the lack of signal latency in analog is also a plus in monitor applications.
    It seems you already have a rack of quality outboard that would plug right into an analog replacement?

    IMNSHO, if you are looking to improve sound quality over your Mackie, you will be moving in the wrong direction with an LS-9.  In your situation, given the tools you already have and given your specific goals of improved sound quality and ease of use in a monitor application;  the APB ProRack House or Monitor would knock the ball out of the park - center field.

    I am sure this is not the only valid argument in this situation - but it's mine.

Very Happy

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Mark Sexton

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Re: Pro rack house / LS9
« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2011, 01:32:21 PM »

The ProRack sounds a lot better than the LS-9. Since you already have the outboard and it's just for one band I would go with the APB.
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Mark Lonow

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Re: Pro rack house / LS9
« Reply #12 on: January 16, 2011, 08:38:57 PM »

i think a digital desk in time could refine  the mixes more due to all the added perks like comps, gates, efex, more eq, remote control,its only going to get better with each update

that said im not a huge fan of ls-9 interface

id look at the i-live/soundcraft

or give it a year or 2 see what pops up

tho u could buy a ls-9 now and it will retain its value rather well for the next few years





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Bob Leonard

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Re: Pro rack house / LS9
« Reply #13 on: January 16, 2011, 10:38:35 PM »

Thanks to all for the responses. Being that the rig pictured is specific to the needs of my band alone I've read some pretty convincing arguments for staying in the analog world, although digital control via MIDI might still sway me in the other direction. But that's based on another need altogether.

As I had said, I'm very surprised with the performance of my 7 year old Onyx in that the sound has always been very good, and never a minute of down time. But, that was almost 7 years ago and there weren't many choices in that class mixer. The LS9 tugs at me, but I feel as if the Pro House is tugging just a bit more based on the above. I own good quality outboard hardware so the features of a digital board just may be moot in this particular case. I think I'll have to rent an APB the next time I do a job where it matters. Actually that was a stupid statement. They all matter, so I'll rent one the next time the difference in tone can be appreciated.
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Guy Johnson

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Re: Pro rack house / LS9
« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2011, 10:19:27 AM »

Oops, I forgot that I also like on the APB
~ the insertable outputs and auxes.

Small digi desks don't quite do it for me at the moment: I like instant access to the knobs!

A mention was made of the fact that one can use so many more processes on each channel of a digital mixer ... but, will it improve a mix? Often lots of gating, comp, fx and eq can damage a mix; suck some life from a band... I'd rather spend on mics & clip-on's, and some absorbing panels on stage if needed!
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Brian Bolly

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Re: Pro rack house / LS9
« Reply #15 on: January 17, 2011, 11:29:52 AM »

Bob Leonard wrote on Sat, 15 January 2011 11:23

In my world where I generally work to crowds of 1000 or less people (getting old) we / the band, will usually mix ourselves from the stage with the help of a "spotter" out on the floor. This has worked well for us. Larger gigs where sound is provided are generally a no brainer, but still require the use of a mixer on stage as we supplement our backline, horns, etc. using Roland XV-3080 sound modules through the board to an SRX system designed just for that purpose.
<snip>
My desire has been to go digital for quite some time now, and my choice if that is the case will be an LS9-16, which I feel might be a perfect stage mixer for my purposes. I would look forward to removing much of the outboard gear, the flexibility of the LS9 and the step up in sound quality.

My dilemma, and the reason for the post is simply this. I am anal when it comes to tonal quality regardless of the component. Now this may seem like an oxymoron considering I use the 1640 now, but the 1640 has great tone and when combined with the right outboard components, speakers and amps the sound is very warm and natural sounding.

A part of the equation is my ability to reach out with my left hand and correct the mix without pause or hesitation.

Having stated all the above I'll be making my move to a new board in the spring. I'm sure that the LS9 will serve me well, and have no concerns regarding tone or capability.

I have also read whatever is available about the APB Pro house board. I have listened to, and been very impressed with the sound quality of systems mixed through the APB board, and it has all of the features I need for an on stage mix.

So there would be the question. If my real quest is for better sound quality without the loss of features, does it make sense for me to purchase an LS9, or would I be just as well off with the APB Pro House. The difference in price is not a part of the equation.


Thanks in advance for any suggestions or advice.



Bob,

As an LS-9 16 owner, I'll throw in a vote for that console - but not without some caveats.  Of the briefcase gigs I do, I'd say 75% of them are on my LS-9.  When I do get my console choice, it's either an Avid Venue, Pro6 or PM5D.

First, plain and simple - the APB sounds better to my ears*.  I don't like making statements I can't quantify with data to back them up, but it just does.  The LS-9 doesn't sound *bad*, it just doesn't sound as good as the APB.  That said, there's a few things I like about the LS-9 that it would be difficult to give up.

The list of things I like:
  • 16 channels with full insert, full 4-band parametric + HPF, 16 auxes, and 4 FX engines in a 27 lb package (The convenience factor alone should be mentioned)
  • With an I/O card and a 1RU preamp, I now have a 24 channel desk
  • 4 FX engines approximately equivalent to an SPX2000 (the REV-X presets do sound good)
  • The ability to go digital out directly into my DSP of choice (with S/PDIF to AES converter)
  • Custom fader layer.
  • Software package/software control
  • USB stick recording, with fully assignable inputs. Recording a monitor mix or a pair of channels for a set has come in handy.
  • The "Flex 15" graphics that can be patched to every output.  I don't use them, but it's nice to know they're there.


I've found that using the digital output into a and eliminating a D/A->A/D stage does seem to clean things up a bit, as it should on any desk.  Since the digital output is assignable, I did try it on monitors at one point but the performers didn't seem to notice a difference.

You mention the use of a "spotter" in the audience.  With the LS9 and the addition of a router and a tablet or laptop, your spotter can easily become your FOH engineer.

The list of things I don't like:
  • Lack of individual channel delay
  • Lack of sub groups (I see in your photo that you do use them)
  • Inability to use any input as a key input.  Key inputs are in groups of 8, so when I want to use a ducker on channel 6, I can't use channel 10 as my key.
  • No AES/EBU output without a S/PDIF to AES converter


My biggest gripe is the fader issue they first had.  I have one of the earlier generations of desks with the old faders, and at this point all 17 faders are bad. They still work, but physical 0 does not equal software 0.  I (and a few others I know) had dialogues with Yamaha in attempt to get them to replace the faders.  I talked to them in 1/2009, about 2 months after my desk was out of warranty, when I first realized there was an issue.  I told them that after owning several original 01Vs for 10+ years with no issues, the fact that the faders were going bad a year of use concerned me.  After about a week of back and forth, they stopped communicating with me, especially after they found out the desk was used "outside" (yes, wedding gigs do happen in a tent!).  However, since they now manufacture the desk with the new faders with dust covers, I understand this is a non-issue.

I don't know if any of the above items would sway your decision, but they are worth mentioning.  

* - My only mixing experience with APB is on the Spectra T series, but I have no doubt that the ProRack is of similar quality in a smaller package.  I had a demo Spectra T desk in May of '06, not long after they were introduced, and the first show on it was truly eye-opening.
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Mac Kerr

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Re: Pro rack house / LS9
« Reply #16 on: January 17, 2011, 11:43:07 AM »

Brian Bolly wrote on Mon, 17 January 2011 11:29


The list of things I don't like:
  • Lack of individual channel delay
  • Lack of sub groups (I see in your photo that you do use them)
  • Inability to use any input as a key input.  Key inputs are in groups of 8, so when I want to use a ducker on channel 6, I can't use channel 10 as my key.
  • No AES/EBU output without a S/PDIF to AES converter




There are subgroups. They are part of the 16 available mixes. You can make any of those 16 mixes wither variable (aux send) or fixed (subgroup) in pairs of mixes.

To use another input as a key input it must be in the same block of 8 faders, but you can use the last couple of mixes as a key input for any channel.

If you are not using and ADAT preamp you can have an MY16-AE card which gives you 16x16 audio channels in AES format. Use what you need for your preamps, the rest for regular AES I/O.

Mac
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Hasse Queisser

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Re: Pro rack house / LS9
« Reply #17 on: January 20, 2011, 07:47:41 AM »

Bob,

If you decide on going digital, you might want to take a look at the new Soundcraft Si Compact series. Should be in the same price bracket as LS9, but a lot more of the controls are available without going through menues and stuff, and I would guess they sound a bit better too.
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John Horvath

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Re: Pro rack house / LS9
« Reply #18 on: February 10, 2011, 01:59:27 PM »

Mac Kerr wrote on Mon, 17 January 2011 10:43

There are subgroups. They are part of the 16 available mixes. You can make any of those 16 mixes wither variable (aux send) or fixed (subgroup) in pairs of mixes.

Just don't forget to UNassign your input channel from the ST if you're assigning the subgroup to ST.
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Mitch Grant

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Re: Pro rack house / LS9
« Reply #19 on: February 14, 2011, 11:34:07 AM »

Steve Payne wrote on Sun, 16 January 2011 09:19

      Well, I guess I need to weigh in here.  I have real world experience with the tools and situations you describe.  Digital has a lot to offer, most of which can be measured in terms of  convenience.  If you are looking for exceptional sound quality and intuitive, quick interface you have to spend a LOT of money on a digital product to come close to what you will get from APB.  A Yamaha LS-9 is not a high end digital product.  It is a dumbed down M7CL.  I have owned an M7CL.  The difference in sound between an M7 and an APB Spectra, ProDesk or ProRack console (I own them all) is night and day.  In fact, I have just bought a pair of Soundcraft Vi4 consoles.  A big (but not only) reason I decided on these consoles was because they sound really good.  Guess what, they are very powerful, cost a small fortune, but don't SOUND and better than my APBs.

    I don't think I saw where you said if you were doing IEMs or not.  If you are, the sound quality will really be appreciated.  In my opinion, the lack of signal latency in analog is also a plus in monitor applications.
    It seems you already have a rack of quality outboard that would plug right into an analog replacement?

    IMNSHO, if you are looking to improve sound quality over your Mackie, you will be moving in the wrong direction with an LS-9.  In your situation, given the tools you already have and given your specific goals of improved sound quality and ease of use in a monitor application;  the APB ProRack House or Monitor would knock the ball out of the park - center field.

    I am sure this is not the only valid argument in this situation - but it's mine.

Very Happy




Hi
   Like Steve, I have owned a Yamaha M7CL, currently own a couple of LS9-32s, and a APB Spectra 24 channel (which I think is sonically the same as the Pro Rack).
   I agree with everything Steve said. Digital (Yamaha inexpensive digital boards, that is) sounds just "OK", or "pretty good" but is wonderfully convenient and compact. Now, my DigiCo SD8 is a great sounding console, but costs much more than the LS9 series, and is a newer design. Like most things, you get what you pay for, and newer is often better when it comes to digital. I definitely don't agree with someone who said that the Mackie, the Presonus, the APB, and the Yamaha probably all sound about the same. If that is true in your situation, your system is not revealing the differences that are there to be revealed with the right gear. Sonic differences in consoles don't always slap you in the face, but they are there and can be appreciated....it just may take a few minutes for you to "acclimate" to it. Take some time when you compare...it will become more apparent the longer you listen.
    APB sounds much better than the LS9, and if sound quality is your top priority, then the APB will most likely satisfy you. You may even reevaluate your opinion of the Mackie sound!
    I also agree with the response that suggested that you possibly rent the consoles in question to determine which one is right for you. A couple of extra dollars to help you make the right decision is probably money well spent. After all, you will probably live with it for several years, right?
Hope that helps! Good luck!
Mitch
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Re: Pro rack house / LS9
« Reply #19 on: February 14, 2011, 11:34:07 AM »


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