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Author Topic: Balanced output; unbalanced input  (Read 10613 times)

Michael Galica

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Balanced output; unbalanced input
« on: March 14, 2011, 01:31:17 PM »

Ok, here's another random question.  I have about a 100' cable run from an aux send that has to go into a "vintage" EQ with only unbalanced connections then to an amp, etc.  Are there any "black boxes" out there that are fairly inexpensive that will maintain the balanced connection for transmission but convert to unbalanced before the EQ?  Everything I've found online so far wants me to unbalance the transmission, and I really don't want to do that.

Thanks.
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Mike Galica

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Re: Balanced output; unbalanced input
« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2011, 01:42:08 PM »

Ok, here's another random question.  I have about a 100' cable run from an aux send that has to go into a "vintage" EQ with only unbalanced connections then to an amp, etc.  Are there any "black boxes" out there that are fairly inexpensive that will maintain the balanced connection for transmission but convert to unbalanced before the EQ?  Everything I've found online so far wants me to unbalance the transmission, and I really don't want to do that.

Thanks.

There are several ways to approach this:

1.  Use a balanced/unbalanced transformer box (such as an EbTech "Hum Eliminator") at the amp end of the run OR:

2.  Use a special cable to handle the send.

http://www.sweetwater.com/expert-center/techtips/d--01/07/2000

This type of cable will be "balanced" all the way to the destination.  I would suggest simply making the appropriate cable as a short "adaptor" pig-tail.  It need be only 6" long and will do the job as long as everything else is proper.

DR
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Mike Spitzer

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Re: Balanced output; unbalanced input
« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2011, 02:03:43 PM »

I would definitely stick with a transformer, like the Jensen PC-2XR. In order to get the benefits of a balanced connection, something has to "flip" one of the signals coming in 180 degrees to cancel any noise. Just putting an adapter on the end won't do that and may introduce noise. By using a transformer, you'll get the benefits of the balanced signal and still be able to plug into an unbalanced input.

I'm sure there are lots of transformers out there, but I've only used the PC-2XR.

-mS
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Fred Dorado

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Re: Balanced output; unbalanced input
« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2011, 02:28:16 PM »

I may be wrong, but I thought I have read that you could just use a regular direct box for something like this.
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John Roberts {JR}

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Re: Balanced output; unbalanced input
« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2011, 03:30:31 PM »

Ok, here's another random question.  I have about a 100' cable run from an aux send that has to go into a "vintage" EQ with only unbalanced connections then to an amp, etc.  Are there any "black boxes" out there that are fairly inexpensive that will maintain the balanced connection for transmission but convert to unbalanced before the EQ?  Everything I've found online so far wants me to unbalance the transmission, and I really don't want to do that.

Thanks.

The transformer will be the safest generic solution (most likely to work without extra nonsense).

Back in the heyday of -10dBV bedroom recording there were lots of inexpensive active 2 channel and multi-channel bump boxes, to convert back and forth between +4 dBu bal and -10dBV unbal.

Finally depending on the specific design of your balanced output, you might get away with just terminating the - output (pin 3) with similar load impedance as the unbalanced input termination on pin 2 to keep your line balanced.

JR
 
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Mike Spitzer

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Re: Balanced output; unbalanced input
« Reply #5 on: March 14, 2011, 10:47:06 PM »

After talking to Dick Rees a bit off-line, I'm inclined to agree with his post. Before shelling out for a transformer, which could end up costing a good bit, it's probably better to start with the cable adapter option and see if it works for you. If there's no noise introduced, then you've accomplished what you needed with minimal cost and effort. If that doesn't work, go with the transformer.

-mS
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Michael Galica

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Re: Balanced output; unbalanced input
« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2011, 11:09:41 PM »

Thanks all.  Never thought to use the Hum Eliminator, but it sounds like it'd fix the issue.  Mostly cause I don't trust myself soldering.

Turns out it is definitely a -10dbV device so I think I'm going to get the Ebtech LLS-2-XLR.  Should be exactly what I need.

Thanks for pointing me in the right direction!
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Mike Galica

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Re: Balanced output; unbalanced input
« Reply #7 on: March 15, 2011, 10:03:28 AM »

Thanks all.  Never thought to use the Hum Eliminator, but it sounds like it'd fix the issue.  Mostly cause I don't trust myself soldering.

Turns out it is definitely a -10dbV device so I think I'm going to get the Ebtech LLS-2-XLR.  Should be exactly what I need.

Thanks for pointing me in the right direction!

For that much money you could likely replace the funky old EQ with something balanced and better.  Just sayin'.......
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Frank DeWitt

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Re: Balanced output; unbalanced input
« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2011, 11:01:16 AM »

I may be wrong, but I thought I have read that you could just use a regular direct box for something like this.

You are correct, A passive DI box can be used in either direction but it will also change the level  In this case it would want balanced Mic level in and would give unbalanced line level out. 

Frank
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Frank DeWitt

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Re: Balanced output; unbalanced input
« Reply #9 on: March 15, 2011, 11:12:35 AM »

Ok, here's another random question.  I have about a 100' cable run from an aux send that has to go into a "vintage" EQ with only unbalanced connections then to an amp, etc.  Are there any "black boxes" out there that are fairly inexpensive that will maintain the balanced connection for transmission but convert to unbalanced before the EQ?  Everything I've found online so far wants me to unbalance the transmission, and I really don't want to do that.

Thanks.

A transformer solution is a good one.  I like transformers, (I sell DI boxes) but you may not need one here.  (won't hurt, assuming you use a good one) but you may not need it.

You have a line out.  That is high enough level to go 100 feet without issue.  I would start with a simple cable with an adapter on the end.  If that gives you hum or buzz then you have a different problem that would probably be solved with a transformer.

Frank
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Michael Galica

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Re: Balanced output; unbalanced input
« Reply #10 on: March 15, 2011, 12:34:21 PM »

Ok, I've been convinced.  So with the output coming from a Mackie VLZ 1604, all i really need to do is wire up the adapter with the "cold" or "-" connection floated at the unbalanced end, correct?
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Mike Galica

Frank DeWitt

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Re: Balanced output; unbalanced input
« Reply #11 on: March 15, 2011, 08:07:50 PM »

Ok, I've been convinced.  So with the output coming from a Mackie VLZ 1604, all i really need to do is wire up the adapter with the "cold" or "-" connection floated at the unbalanced end, correct?

I don't know what the jacks are on your equipment, but this should cover it.
http://www.rane.com/note110.html
Frank
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Re: Balanced output; unbalanced input
« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2011, 11:07:43 PM »

Ok, I've been convinced.  So with the output coming from a Mackie VLZ 1604, all i really need to do is wire up the adapter with the "cold" or "-" connection floated at the unbalanced end, correct?

Please go back to my first reply and re-read the linked Sweetwater sheet.  It discusses several options for the possibilities including the one you just asked about.  There are three or four options including the transformer. 

And again I would say that if the simple cable solution is not working for you it would be better to spend your money on a better EQ with balanced in/out than buying a transformer and keeping an obsolete EQ of questionable quality.  Or maybe it's a diamond in the rough.......
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Re: Balanced output; unbalanced input
« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2011, 11:07:43 PM »


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