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Author Topic: Make a sticky, please!  (Read 8363 times)

Gary Perrett

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Re: Make a sticky, please!
« Reply #20 on: December 22, 2010, 01:51:36 pm »

I've built more than a dozen... the first took 2 days and then I think we built 6 in 2 days (all the jigs were already made by then, and you'll want jigs, otherwise you'll tear your hair out)

determine how many you want to build and cut all the parts out at the same time if possible.

I think someone posted a price north of $5000 for the 940's back then?

The thing that really still satisfies me is the look on peoples face when things rain down off the walls and ceiling when those things get going...I can't tell you th number of times band guys, business owners and other sound companies come up with total disbelief of the low end.. and want to know how THEY can get some of those!

G

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Randy Freemire

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Re: Make a sticky, please!
« Reply #21 on: December 22, 2010, 03:26:47 pm »

Chris Jensen wrote:
A sticky won't be good enough because then PMs will go to that person asking specific questions. I wouldn't even dare undertake such as task because it will never be good enough for everyone and someone will always complain.At the top of the LSP documentation page a few lines that read:80hz and under.SPL of properly built LAB see graph lower on page.Impedance of properly build LAB see graph lower on page.Weight of properly built LAB 240lbs +.1 cab won't do much unless corner loaded, need at least 4Cab is 1/12 of horn mouth, which is 27hz.Cost of drives see links below.Input power see "insert message thread here" or more then 1 watt less then 4000w.Cost of plywood? Where do you live, call a shop. Probably more then you think it should cost.How long will it take to build? A lot of time! Are you a hobbyist? A pro? You will know once you have finished. There is no Version 1 of the driver, only Version 2 as 1 was a prototype. Version 3 was a redesign of the cab for a living room.


The sticky I had in mind wouldn’t need to be so technical.  It’s not about spelling out all the details, it’s giving an orientation to answer the question, “Why would I go to all this trouble?”.  And there wouldn’t have to be a specific author, a Sticky is oftentimes anonymous or done by the moderator with the understanding that its part of the orientation to a forum.

At the first level of engagement or welcoming to such a big project, the Sticky could answer simple questions like the below in a few words, and then having various links to follow:

? How much is this going to cost?   (links to various posts that has different peoples ideas; so far I’ve heard from $500 to $1,000 for wood and speakers, and no dollar figures on amps, new or used)
? How long is this going to take? (this varies extremely from a few days to weeks; once again links to give an idea of different levels of experience with woodworking)
? What does it compare to? (more links of various reviews, shootouts, etc.)
? Is one enough?  How does their use compare to other subs (Seeing so many people say that multiple stacked units are the best way to go, I’m unclear on that myself; of course depending on the room, spl and music, multiple subs are needed, but once again, no perspective here).
? Weight?  Dimensions?  Schleppability?
? Etc.

By the time person has absorbed this info and followed those links, they’re probably getting pretty involved already. Answering the question simply in the sticky but then saying, “for a more complete idea read these links”, gets the ball rolling, with a continual reminder that for best results the entire site needs to be read.


Gary Perrett wrote:
I've built more than a dozen... the first took 2 days and then I think we built 6 in 2 days (all the jigs were already made by then, and you'll want jigs, otherwise you'll tear your hair out.Determine how many you want to build and cut all the parts out at the same time if possible.  I think someone posted a price north of $5000 for the 940's back then?The thing that really still satisfies me is the look on peoples face when things rain down off the walls and ceiling when those things get going...I can't tell you the number of times band guys, business owners and other sound companies come up with total disbelief of the low end.. and want to know how THEY can get some of those!G


Exactly!  This would be a fantastic post to link to in the welcoming Sticky- “The thing that really still satisfies me is the look on peoples face when things rain down off the walls and ceiling when those things get going...I can't tell you the number of times band guys, business owners and other sound companies come up with total disbelief of the low end.. and want to know how THEY can get some of those!”  

Yes indeed!

Gary- it sounds like you’re pretty experienced as a woodworker (based on your completion times), and that there were at least 2 of you- is this the kind of job that it really helps to have a second pair of hands on board?  What kind of forum reading did it take before you were motivated and confident to begin?  Knowing what you know now, what suggestions do you have for a welcoming Sticky for newcomers?
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Randy Freemire

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Re: Make a sticky, please!
« Reply #22 on: December 22, 2010, 03:31:51 pm »

Ivan Beaver wrote:
Part of the whole "Educational" learning experience is not having the the answer handed to you, but all of the learning that you get while searching for the answer, not so much the answer itself.Yes, you get the result real quick that way-but a lot of the whole DIY experience is the knowledge (good and bad) that you get along the way TO the answer.


OK, valid point, but once again, this is presented as either/or by many of you.  What I’m proposing is a sticky that doesn’t hand all the info over- just enough to get a scope of the project and serve as a lure and a welcome.  

“Yes, you get the result real quick that way”.  No, not at all what I mean- it’s not like this sticky would be a substitute in any way for reading through the posts- it would just be a welcoming station with answers to some really basic, mostly non-technical questions (like, what does this compare to that’s commercially available and what’s the scope of this project in dollars/committment/skills) and some various links to start the process of understanding the whole project better.  

This project means many different things to different people.  For many it sounds like learning about subs and having the gumption to do so much research and hard work is a primary goal in and of itself.  I’m sure that’s true for many of you, but you didn’t necessarily start out like that.  

Sometimes a simple goal like, “Wow, I love bass and want pro-quality sound, but I can’t afford to spend $3-5,000 for a good sub”; sometimes that’s the gateway, and once people get involved in the project it appeals to other qualities in themselves, such as understanding how sound works and the design of loudspeakers.  

There’s a starting point in every unknown endeavor, and being so experienced with it you may have forgotten, for example, how you got interested enough in dancing to start taking lessons (your gateway in that case was probably the woman you wanted to impress), or in cars to start fixing your own (the gateway there was perhaps saving money as a teenager and finding out in the process your mechanical aptitude and how fun it was to have projects in common with your buds), etc., etc., etc.
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Randy Freemire

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Re: Make a sticky, please!
« Reply #23 on: December 22, 2010, 03:37:56 pm »

Jeff Kennedy wrote:
1. Approximately how long it would take for someone with moderate woodworking skills to make one of these boxes. How about the second one?The first 2 labs I built took me a week. Half of that was spent setting up jigs so I could build more later. 2. Is there just one or are there several sizes (they seem huge from what i've seen). What do they weigh? What does it take to man handle them?I'd recommend building the basic PSW version.. There is much work leading to this design.. all other "Variations" were for the most part single person creations.3. What's the approximate cost for wood, speakers, etc.$500 10 years ago4. What do they compare to?There are not many pro touring subs out there that sound as "hifi" as these. Danleys of course.. but I would digress that not to many tours are carrying those :/ And they can take a beating.. 5. Is anyone making parts (such as cutting out all the pieces that you then assemble and glue)?You can hire a CAD saw to cut for you.. but that takes all the fun out of the project!6. What amplifiers and DSP are used?I like QSC + Powersoft (you can read about 345431553 articles titled "whats the best amp for a lab")I don't know of an EAW sub that will compare to these..  

Jeff,
Thanks for the answers!  Just to be clear, it took a week to build your first 2 subs?  (As in, a week each or a week to build both).  Now that you’ve got jigs setup, what’s your turnaround time, and is this while building several at a time?  What’s your woodworking experience/level?


Jeff Bailie wrote:
I would say that we do have a super vibrant, and very intelligent community here on PSW. The most experienced people in the industry are on here. And the folks who design and manufacture the products they use are right here also.They are so intelligent that they prescribed reading the entire Lab Subwoofer forum. They do this because this is what it takes to build the Cabinet. What I enjoy most about this project is that you get to be a scientist too. You have to chance to build it the way you think is best. You have the facts from the creators. The opinions of the other DIY folks and the opinions from the audio pros. Have any of your questions about the Labhorn gone unanswered? I doubt it. These people here on PSW are punctual too. If I need info about anything at all, I can get it here quickly. There are people sitting at there computers right now wishing you would ask them something technical. Just sitting there.. Ready to slap you with an equation. No need for a sticky. It would just tell you to read all this info, and don't cut your fingers off.


That’s outstanding- so it would seem this is a plenty vibrant community already.  Given that, this forum doesn’t have a need per se at this time to keep itself vibrant (though I’m sure fresh blood is always needed).  The spirit of what I’m talking about is more in line with the boy scout motto: Do a good turn daily!  Yes, he and his friends know the joy of that self-sufficient trek into the wilderness, but they also are “Helpful, Friendly, Kind”. (Sorry!  Couldn’t help myself- this is funny for me ‘cause I grew up going to boyscouts, and much of my experience was not good).  

I digress- the point is, you make a good case for this already being an outstanding forum, so there’s not necessarily any internal need, so I’m appealing to the altruistic public service aspect of making the initial entry more accessible.


Joe Breher wrote:
Over the last two weeks or so, I have read every thread on this board that looked to be LabSub-oriented. All 25 pages of thread headers.There are a lot of interesting nuggets buried throughout. However, there is also an overwhelming redundancy.Even after all that, many threads make references to early discussions that no longer exist. These would be discussions documenting the evolution of the requirements specification, early design parameters, etc. I assume they must have gotten lost in some site re-org. I'm sure they exist somewhere, but it ain't in the LabSub forum.Soo....If anyone would take the time to index the *primary* content, and make the index a sticky, I think it would be beneficial.Further, if anyone knows where the early discussions are archived, at least a link to that should be a sticky.


This is beyond what I was talking about but sounds like a worthy project.  “Essential Reading” index would be a kind and useful compilation for sure!  Not sure why trudging through persistent redundancy makes anyone more worthy or better informed- esp. not with the overload of information that’s part of modern life!
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Chris Jensen

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Re: Make a sticky, please!
« Reply #24 on: December 22, 2010, 04:49:57 pm »

Something that is great about this project is that it isn't for everyone.  If you aren't willing to do the research it's not for you and that is fine.  "If you have to ask how much you can't afford it"  This rings very true in this project.  Fixing a car is a great example.  Do you look at the front of the book to get the instructions before you start?  Do you read the steps as you go?  No you read the section, understand it first, then you go to the car look at what you are going to do, re read the steps, reference all parts so you have the knowledge before you go.  There is a great post in the lounge right now about DIY gear.  Some guy wants to cover 2 baseball fields with diy gear.  Can it be done? Sure!  Can it be done well?  Sure!  Would anyone in their right mind do it who knew how to do it?  Not a chance!  The number one thing holding back the LAB is that it is DIY.  I have no intention to question anyones wood working skills, but how consistent are these things?  There is no quality control on them.  That isn't a bad thing in itself for a user, but this thing is all about the design.  People put the best ideas on paper all day long with no ability to duplicate the plan.  Yes many of these subs are impeccably built.  I'd say mine is, but the important thing to remember is that is my opinion and my word saying that.  As I said no offense to anyone that has built these but try selling your home brew system to a group making money.  You want to rent or use a system to someone on your word.  There is no proof.  Now my point, the more of these out there but less people fully obsessed with what they are doing starts to ruin the name.  It's a harsh reality but one thing about these is that they were built by a manufacturer of sorts.  Mr Danley I'm sure used SPL and Servo Drive to do this.  There are a ton of DIY subs on the web but none are built with any sort of merit.  That doesn't mean they aren't good they just have no guarantee that they are what they are.  Those KF940 will be perfect every time you use them, LABs could vary from build to build.  If a bunch of hacks start making these not to spec without the understanding of what they are doing the LAB name will be tarnished, all people will know is that those things were crap when that guy brought them in before.  I just recently had to convince someone I was working for that color blasts were a great fixture.  They didn't want anything to do with renting them because they had such a bad experience with them.  I finally got to the bottom of what happened, some one used them in an awful way and ruined the clients perception of what could be done with the tool.  That is like some one saying build this for me but don't use dewalt tools because the last guy did a bad job with those, they suck.  The quality and name is protected by the knowledge gained.  Think like a doctor, there is no sticky on surgery.  I know it's nowhere near the same level but it has the same spirit in it.  

Randy, To address your questions you have from the people that provided info.  You mention how many might be needed.  You have to understand horn theory at a basic level.  One corner loaded vs 4, 6, 8, 12.  Why do people want multiples, there is no global answer.  You have to decide for yourself.  How much?  I have Phillips plywood here in the San Fernando Valley, a HUGE plywood distributor, how about someone in the middle of America with out someone of note to get wood from.  My sheets in '04 were maybe $40, I really don't remember.  But I remember the local smaller company wanted like 60 a sheet, it was way way more.  I also bought my drives form Orange County speaker with a discount, where if you need to do part express with shipping somewhere, that might cost a lot.  Handles, corners, jack plates, feet, wheels, grills, paint, Line-X.  Yes 500 to 1000 maybe more.  Where do you stop.  You come rolling into a gig with some shitty painted cabs with no handles, wood fill over screw holes, filled gaps, you name it.  I don't want the name tarnished by some person who didn't do the research.  Now I get the fact you want a real quick summary.  It has been given, price, weight, size, how long to build, power, how many.  The first answer was read and you will find out.  This board is where the pros are, the best in the industry in this country.  There are so many posts where people ask a question and don't like the answer so they ask again, or make a case against the answer they are given.  There was a post on this forum a few weeks ago about guy that wanted to build subs asked questions and was told an very sound smart business like answer.  After a go around a few times he came back later and said thank you and he was getting help from another forum.  He didn't like the answer and went somewhere else and probably heard what he wanted to hear so he was content.  As I said before one will be burned is they aren't prepared to start this.  You car analogy was the best one.  If you start fixing the car you better have all the parts in front of you because it's a long walk to the store for a part or a tool you didn't realize you needed.  Nothing like taking apart the car you need to go get something, right?  But all the answers are in that book and you won't know if it is worth it until you read the whole thing to understand it fully.

A lot of these guys answering have worked for years in audio with great knowledge about cabinet design and construction.  Many come from a day when DIY was standard as manufacturers weren't up to the task of making things well.  Look at the largest touring companies, they made their pa's way back when.  Many of the answers are coming from people that had to make cabs, today you can buy things for so cheep that this has to be a learning process.  Again I understand that all you want is a summary but the summary exists, the LSP documentation page, the sticky that is already there.  Read the graphs, have you ever seen on JBL or EAW sites a list of equipment that their products is better then or comparable too?  No you need to be able to interpret that from the info they give you.  Treat this page as the manufacturers info page.  This is a pro project not a typical DIY.  If one can't figure out the size from the plans how do they expect to be able to follow the plans.  When looking at them do you say I can do that or are you lost at what to say first?  Maybe like man this looks tricky, that is very telling of how long it will take YOU(any person at a given skill level) to build.  How loud do YOU need it?  How do YOU need to transport it.  

PLEASE see this as constructive to the argument!  I only want the best of LABS out there as to represent my work.  If you want something else that anyone can make go to the dj forums and make some of their stuff.  Great designs sure but what is the build quality form unit to unit?  I don't want that in question with my Lab is possible.  Please become one of the proud owners with not only the item but the knowledge so that you can spread the word with the responsibility I think that comes with having this AMAZING unit in our grasps.  I know I sound way to passionate but that is how I see it.  

As a little aside I have always thought it is very comical, the person who wants to build 8 labs to save money on buying thousands of dollars of subs but can afford the help to move them and load them in.  The weight and size of these really means they come with a crew that needs to support them.  Think of the floor space you need to store these vs something you can stack on your own, I would think the rent would off set the money savings very quickly to just store them, not to mention the guy you bring along to pick them up.

Filled with too much LAB Sub Passion for his own good!
Chris Jensen
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Chris Jensen

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Re: Make a sticky, please!
« Reply #25 on: December 22, 2010, 04:58:44 pm »

I meant to post this but forgot.  Many have probably seen it but this is perfect example of DIY.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iB1NUgNPsp0  They might have rocked, but where is the guarantee.

Chris
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Randy Freemire

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Re: Make a sticky, please!
« Reply #26 on: December 24, 2010, 09:21:06 pm »

So.... I had my say, a few other people did as well, so that's that.  Good to see enthusiastic diy'ers chasing a worthy project and supporting one another.  

I just wish these subs weren't so big and heavy!  But i suppose that's the key to their outstanding performance.  For my needs at this time I'd be more interested in subs under a hundred pounds with a smaller footprint.

PS Hmmm.... don't know why, but on my computer, on this second page of posts, the text doesn't wrap normally, goes 3-4 times further than it should (requiring left to right scrolling).
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Make a sticky, please!
« Reply #27 on: December 24, 2010, 09:49:44 pm »

Randy Freemire wrote on Fri, 24 December 2010 20:21

So.... I had my say, a few other people did as well, so that's that.  Good to see enthusiastic diy'ers chasing a worthy project and supporting one another.  

I just wish these subs weren't so big and heavy!  But i suppose that's the key to their outstanding performance.  For my needs at this time I'd be more interested in subs under a hundred pounds with a smaller footprint.

PS Hmmm.... don't know why, but on my computer, on this second page of posts, the text doesn't wrap normally, goes 3-4 times further than it should (requiring left to right scrolling).


That's because you used the "code" format tool rather than the "quote" tool.  Use the "quote" radio button, next to the "reply" button.
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Randy Freemire

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Re: Make a sticky, please!
« Reply #28 on: December 24, 2010, 10:41:32 pm »

Quote:

PS Hmmm.... don't know why, but on my computer, on this second page of posts, the text doesn't wrap normally, goes 3-4 times further than it should (requiring left to right scrolling).

That's because you used the "code" format tool rather than the "quote" tool.  Use the "quote" radio button, next to the "reply" button.


OK- I'm used to having the quote option available as part of formatting the page, like making something bold; it certainly makes it easier if you're quoting from multiple posts, or from multiple places within a post, though the html is simple enough.  I tried to go back and fix it but it looks like there's a limited edit window available.
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Make a sticky, please!
« Reply #29 on: December 25, 2010, 01:32:38 am »

Authors may edit posts for 24 hours, after that the post is closed.
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