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Author Topic: First Timer, Be Gentle Please!!  (Read 3201 times)

Chris Hunt

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First Timer, Be Gentle Please!!
« on: November 29, 2010, 09:24:40 pm »

Alright, I have my first install coming up first of the year.  I have been a FOH guy for several years and have worked with some of the better groups in town, blah blah.  A new club is opening and they want a perm install due to the lack of available real estate for speaker stacks etc when the bands come in.  Having first hand knowledge of the rigs most of the A bands that play these kinds of rooms in town have, my intial thoughts are VRX or SRX as I have told the owner that at the very least, they need a system that is on par with the top bands that play there, which is your basic SRX setup (dual 18s per side and two 15' tops per side).  

Like in my post title, be gentle with your response.  I know that he should consult a "professional" etc., but I want to get my feet wet and have several friends who do this for a living that are helping me out, so we're all good.  My list includes the following:

System A
VRX932LAP X4
VRX918SP X4
EV DC-One
Cables, Snake, etc.

System B
SRX728S X2
SRX725F X4
QSC RMX5050 X3
Cables, Snake, etc.

Price quotes are reasonably close with the VRX rig costing slightly more of course.  

Ok the room: demensions for the live music side are 40 ft wide by 135 feet long, 12 foot ceilings, concrete floors, and the usual bar crap.  Their request is subs under the stage and flown tops.  With the room being rectangular, the stage is on one end, in the corner facing out 45 degrees (not ideal, but it makes more room for tables, blah blah).  The first 30-40 feet will be dance floor, then from there to the back of the room will be seated patrons watching the band.  The VRX might be the better choice with the attenuation and array-ability.  

Questions: is there a better option for similar pricing of the above mentioned gear? What am I missing for a system that bands will simply bring out their FOH and Monitor rig to run it? What should I charge the owner for consulting and install/setup, etc.? Coverage, is this enough PA for the room demensions? Anyting else you guys want to throw out.

Again, this is my first install and I will be accompianed by guys wo do this for a living, but I will take lead to learn.  Thanks in advance for all the feedback I know I will get. When it comes to audio, I get paid very well due to my knowledge of running sound and my ear for tuning, but this is new to me and something I am exteremly interested in getting into.  Thanks guys!!

Chris
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Rob Timmerman

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Re: First Timer, Be Gentle Please!!
« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2010, 09:48:37 pm »

With that room shape and configuration, you'll probably want some fill speakers away from the dance floor.  Personally, I'd treat it as a 40x40 room with a corner stage, plus the 40x95 room with the seated patrons.  The 12' ceiling doesn't help matters.  A first guess says you'll probably need at least 3 coverage areas.

Is there a reason you're limiting yourself to JBL speakers?  Does the owner have an idea on budget?  And are there plans for any acoustic treatment of the room, as needed?

If the plan is for the venue to provide racks'n'stacks for all bands that play the venue, you need to make it simple for a guest console to patch in (this probably means dedicated inputs on the DSP and a patch panel).
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Chris Hunt

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Re: First Timer, Be Gentle Please!!
« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2010, 10:00:44 pm »

Not limited to JBL, but I think he has in mind somehwere around the +/-15K-20K price point.  Accoustical treatment is absolutely in the budget and will be REQUIRED.  As to making it easy, the way that the venues are setup here like we are doing with this, is to have the main drive returns on the snake at the FOH position clearly labled "mains." We won't allow access to the processor as the limiter and room eq will be preset and not editable.  Another requirement from myself to at least cut down on the system abuse.  However, the bands that will play this venue are pros and respect the gear, as we do in other venues setup like this.  We can't protect from everyone, but we'll at least try.

Didn't think of the multi-zone application.  GREAT idea.  We can concentrate on the main dance floor and then fill the other areas of the live music side to taste.  Thanks Rob!

Chris
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Duane Massey

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Re: First Timer, Be Gentle Please!!
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2010, 11:00:27 pm »

Check out the Symetrix Jupiter-8 processor. 8in/8out, does just about everything you'll need, and MAP is $ 1499.00.

Are you going to ground-stack or fly?
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Duane Massey
Houston, Texas, USA

Brad Weber

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Re: First Timer, Be Gentle Please!!
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2010, 11:28:55 pm »

With 12' ceilings and a 135' deep room you better plan on either some pretty extreme variations in levels and poor intelligibility in some areas or using delayed fills.  I agree with Rob's idea of creating multiple zones, however this could change the processor requirements and add the need for additional amplification and cabling.

I don't know how much of this you have already addressed but with all the powered speakers or amps have you addressed getting power to the desired locations in a code compliant manner?  Have you also addressed power for backline, the monitor system and at FOH?  And how do you plan on flying the mains?  Power, cabling, connectivity at the stage and so on for a permanent install are often handled differently than you might with a portable or touring system (e.g. no extension cords, no plug strips on the stage, multiple connectivity points on stage with floor boxes and/or wall plates, etc.).  Some of this is related to code compliance and is not an option while other aspects may come down to how professional a job you plan to do or that they can afford.

This may sound stupid, but ADA defines an Assembly Area as "A room or space accommodating a group of individuals for recreational, political, social, civic, or amusement purposes, or the consumption of food and drink." and requires assistive listening systems to be provided for Assembly Areas.  Since this is a new space and seems to meet that definition, you may have to be ADA compliant including providing assistive listening.

If the people you are involving do this for a living then they should be familiar with the going rates.  Unless you are really looking at the speaker system in detail (modeling or at least some actual design), creating system drawings and so on, there probably isn't really much "consulting" involved.
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Brad Weber
muse Audio Video

Chris Hunt

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Re: First Timer, Be Gentle Please!!
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2010, 11:41:35 pm »

Thanks for the info guys, keep it coming.  Looks like the multi-zone setup is the direction I am going in.  Once the build-out begins, I will be working closely with the electrician as to proper power for stage, foh, PA, etc. This is one of the first topics I spoke to the owner about. As to the processor, I am completely open to ideas, as it appears now I might need more than 6 outputs to achieve the proper delay processing for the fills in the room.  Leaning towards flying the speakers to get them out of the way as there really is no good ground stack area in the room that is not in the way of the bar, bathrooms, etc.

The stage power and snake will be a simple setup.  A recessed snake in the rear of the stage has worked best with these setups.  We will have 2 20 amps along the back of the stage and 2 in the front for stage power and the needed FOH and PA power as well.  

Chris    
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Silas Pradetto

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Re: First Timer, Be Gentle Please!!
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2010, 09:41:51 am »

Why use an EV processor with JBL speakers?

Don't just stick portable Guitar Center speakers in there and call it a day. Use something designed for the purpose, like Community IHP series. Not only are they going to run circles around the SRX and VRX, they are cheaper too. And flyable. And come in about 100 configurations to meet the exact needs of the room. And Community will design you a system for free!

Also, there is no chance in hell that $20k will make it happen, at least not doing it right.
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