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[James Drake]

Andrew Broughton wrote on Thu, 25 November 2010 17:31

Jonathan 'JP' Peirce wrote on Thu, 25 November 2010 07:17 Standard IATSE contracts have clauses for recording rates. If the band is recording the show for sale, the stagehands will get an increased rate. JP I just love how they get a pay bump for doing no additional work.

yeah,

what one person charges should be based on things like how many hours they work, theirs costs to do the job, their experience, going market rate etc.

asking things like double rates on new years eve etc. i think is fair also.

it is of course nice to get tipped after a job, or to get offered more than you asked.

but to EXPECT more based on the results of your work, or the income generated for your client based on your work, is not fair. i think.

by the same logic you should be paid less if you worked all day for a show where nobody turned up. watch the unions shout about that one.

my collegue's dad works for a global super-union for unions and their arguments annoy me.

[Charlotte Evans]

James Drake wrote on Thu, 25 November 2010 17:42

....but to EXPECT more based on the results of your work, or the income generated for your client based on your work, is not fair. i think. by the same logic you should be paid less if you worked all day for a show where nobody turned up. watch the unions shout about that one.

My bold.

Oh come on! If I work a full day I expect to be paid, it is not my problem if the show is a sell-out or two men and a dog watching from the rear stalls.....I still get paid as per what I agreed with the band's management.

[Andrew Broughton]

Charlotte Evans wrote on Thu, 25 November 2010 11:45

Oh come on! If I work a full day I expect to be paid, it is not my problem if the show is a sell-out or two men and a dog watching from the rear stalls.....I still get paid as per what I agreed with the band's management.

I think you REALLY missed the point.

[James Drake]

Charlotte Evans wrote on Thu, 25 November 2010 18:45

James Drake wrote on Thu, 25 November 2010 17:42 ....but to EXPECT more based on the results of your work, or the income generated for your client based on your work, is not fair. i think. by the same logic you should be paid less if you worked all day for a show where nobody turned up. watch the unions shout about that one. My bold. Oh come on! If I work a full day I expect to be paid, it is not my problem if the show is a sell-out or two men and a dog watching from the rear stalls.....I still get paid as per what I agreed with the band's management.

Hahaha!  

Feels like I'm at work.  

[hint: we're on the same side. and my boss never reads and/or comprehends my emails]

And I thought I wrote clearly and concisely.... I have a degree you know........

[Larry Robbins]

I have been working as an IATSE stagehand for a couple of years.
An interesting aspect of this is that IA has different contracts with each venue or producer.

Some gigs pay well and others do not.  The degree of difficulty and required skill level often has little bearing on pay.

In general, industrials at convention centers are the highest paid calls.  
Live Nation is one of the lowest.

The senior hands (augmenting house crew) are the ones brought in on calls where there is a recording or TV rate.  I've yet to have that privilege.

Regardless of the pay, a dedication to doing a good job and catching things that might fall thru the cracks adversely effecting the event is what works and gets one requested on jobs.

[Jonathan 'JP' Peirce]

SO.... I mix a show, for which I get paid. Someone records it, sells it and because I did 'no extra work' I don't deserve a dime more?
JP

[Andy Peters]

Jonathan 'JP' Peirce wrote on Thu, 25 November 2010 12:46

SO.... I mix a show, for which I get paid. Someone records it, sells it and because I did 'no extra work' I don't deserve a dime more?

Assuming you know in advance that your show is being recorded, you should then discuss terms with whoever hired you. This is likely true if you know CDs of the show are to be sold 15 minutes after closing curtain.

If the show is being recorded without your knowledge, find out why.

-a

[Andy Peters]

Tim McCulloch wrote on Thu, 25 November 2010 08:46

In contracts with the venue, it is usually called a "commercial use" clause.  It applies when the performance derives income outside of ticket sales, typically television/radio/pay per view broadcasting or video/film recording for non-archival use (i.e. selling a DVD or audio recording which includes that individual performance or inclusion of the performance in a theatrical release).

OK, so consider this not-hypothetical situation. I recorded a show, multitracking console direct outs to my laptop. I did this mainly for archiving reasons but I knew that the band might wish to release bonus tracks.

So three of these tracks were in fact used as bonus tracks on the recent reissues of the band's first two records, and they are advertised as "recorded live at that great club in DC." Now this club is independent (no Live Nation involvement) so this might be different than with what you're talking about, but if it WAS a LN venue, does this mean that I should not have even recorded it?

-a

[Tim McCulloch]

Andy Peters wrote on Thu, 25 November 2010 14:12

Tim McCulloch wrote on Thu, 25 November 2010 08:46 In contracts with the venue, it is usually called a "commercial use" clause.  It applies when the performance derives income outside of ticket sales, typically television/radio/pay per view broadcasting or video/film recording for non-archival use (i.e. selling a DVD or audio recording which includes that individual performance or inclusion of the performance in a theatrical release). OK, so consider this not-hypothetical situation. I recorded a show, multitracking console direct outs to my laptop. I did this mainly for archiving reasons but I knew that the band might wish to release bonus tracks. So three of these tracks were in fact used as bonus tracks on the recent reissues of the band's first two records, and they are advertised as "recorded live at that great club in DC." Now this club is independent (no Live Nation involvement) so this might be different than with what you're talking about, but if it WAS a LN venue, does this mean that I should not have even recorded it? -a

You'd have to ask LiveNation about that.

FWIW, the reason the stagehands get a commercial rate is because the other production workers do, and they get additional wages up front; some get residuals.  Since there's no way to distribute residuals to the stagehands, they get theirs up front.  In our Local's contracts that amounts to a $5/hr gross bonus.  After the payroll service fees and taxes, that means most workers get about $3/hr more.  Considering that only about 18%-22% of workers are on a call for more than 8 hours, the typical worker makes an extra $24 for their day.  That might buy pizza and sodas for a small family.

Also note that facilities charge more rent when the venue is used for television, film or other broadcasting.  The workers aren't the only entities seeking/deserving additional compensation.

Have fun, good luck.

Tim Mc

[Tim McCulloch]

James Drake wrote on Thu, 25 November 2010 11:42

Andrew Broughton wrote on Thu, 25 November 2010 17:31 Jonathan 'JP' Peirce wrote on Thu, 25 November 2010 07:17 Standard IATSE contracts have clauses for recording rates. If the band is recording the show for sale, the stagehands will get an increased rate. JP I just love how they get a pay bump for doing no additional work. yeah, what one person charges should be based on things like how many hours they work, theirs costs to do the job, their experience, going market rate etc. asking things like double rates on new years eve etc. i think is fair also. it is of course nice to get tipped after a job, or to get offered more than you asked. but to EXPECT more based on the results of your work, or the income generated for your client based on your work, is not fair. i think. by the same logic you should be paid less if you worked all day for a show where nobody turned up. watch the unions shout about that one. my collegue's dad works for a global super-union for unions and their arguments annoy me.

The revenue potential for such events increases the value of the work provided.  That IS the market at work, or your idea that double rates on New Years is invalid.

This is probably the thread locker, because I see nothing but politics and social class comments coming from this discussion.

You're free to devalue your own worth as you see fit, but you won't be doing so where trade unionism is still alive, and in the USA and Canada, that is 110,000 folks making entertainment magic happen every day.

Tim McCulloch, Secretary-Treasurer
IATSE Local 190
Wichita - Hutchinson - El Dorado Kansas, USA

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