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[Shane Presley]

I just wanted to see if there are any other behirnger dimmer users out there that have experienced issues.  I know these things are not workhorses, but I thought I'd get better performance than this . I used my 4 x LD6020 rack this past sat - it was a Dog show, 4 bars of 6 par 64 1000watt bulbs (one bar , one dimmer). They were solid on about 2 hours on 50% - then they started going crazy.  I had to bump the fader to about 60%, but the lights shot to 100% on.  They would also slightly flicker.  I was sending them camlock power through a pass through on an ETC sensor rack. 75 feet of #2 cable, 3 phase. The ETC was behaving properly.  I switched the behringer dimmer to manual, and it was doing the same thing, so that ruled out DMX.  The minute I turned one channel breaker on, the dimmer would buzz... they normally don't buzz... I shut the whole rack down since they were "sorta done" with that ring...

The 3 phase 100 amp main in the distro panel in the bottom of the dimmer rack was warmish, but the dimmer breakers themselves (3phase 30's) were not.  Any thoughts on what the problem might be.

[Alan Hamilton]

Lack of airflow in the rack causing the dimmers to overheat maybe? Voltage starved for some reason? Both?

The fact that all 4 dimmers were doing it tends to make me believe there was some external trigger of some sort, not a dimmer failure. I don't see 4 dimmers all experiencing the same failure mode at the same time.

There are some internal fuses in those dimmers... I had one once where they were factory installed in the wrong slots which allowed the dimmer to power on but appear brain dead with a scrambled readout. I'm not sure what would happen if you had a situation that would pop just one/two of those fuses. ...or what would cause them to blow.

If the dimmers didn't self correct on some known good power and cabling I'd open and check those internal fuses if I was you.

[Duane Massey]

Well, let's see...it says "Behringer" on it, and you were running it at full maximum power....I'm shocked that you had a problem

Actually Elation, ADJ, even NSI would not be on my list of dimmer packs to max out, but I would (and do) use them on less demanding applications, normally running them at 60% of the maximum rated load.

[Shane Presley]

Shane Presley wrote on Mon, 22 November 2010 09:14

They were solid on about 2 hours on 50% - then they started going crazy.

Hi Duane - what I meant by solid on - was that they were on constantly at 50% for 2 hours, until they started acting crazy....so I wasn't tasking the dimmer or maxing out...

these dimmers have been fine for the task I normally put them to ( rock n roll dimming)... and I agree they are not sensor rack, or other quality dimmer, but I was hoping they would be up to the task.

The culprit in question...(the top four are powered by the motion labs distro with 3phase twist lock 30's).. the top one is not powered, becuase I didn't need it...

[Duane Massey]

Shane, I am certainly not a gear snob, and I own and use gear from everyone from Behringer to High End. I've just not had had very good luck with the lower$$ dimmers unless I loaded them fairly conservatively IF I needed to leave them constantly on, even at 50-60% brightness. For intermittent use I would be less concerned unless you were constantly flashing 1k per channel. Even then it might work perfectly for you, but I tend to be very conservative about power in both lighting and sound.

[Silas Pradetto]

Shane, how are you wiring these?

I used to own some and could somewhat create the situation you describe. Inside the pack, there are 6 power connections, one for each channel. The channel dimming control circuitry is arranged in pairs, however. So the dimming control on channel 1 works for channels 1 and 2. It turns out, those pairs of channels have to be on the same phase to work properly.

I originally tried to wire mine for single phase operation with channels 1-3 on one leg and channels 4-6 on another. All I got was a flickering, misbehaving mess on the middle channels. After I divided the channels into groups of channels 1-2 and 3-6 things worked properly. I just ended up wiring each pack opposite--switching legs back and forth so the load stayed even.

If you're wiring them normal 3-phase, with channels 1-2, 3-4, and 5-6 grouped as such, then you should be fine, and I have no idea what's wrong.

Edit: maybe something in the control circuitry overheated?

[Shane Presley]

Hey silas - yeah they are set for three phase, and I'm pretty sure I would have gone with the following scheme.  First lug red, next lug black, next lug blue...

I'm pretty anal about having everything match, so every dimmer would of been wired the same way.  The other thing, is I was demanding the same amount of output on every channel, at the same time (entire bar of 6 on at once).

I was using channels 1 - 23 for the ETC dimmer I had, and 4 x behringer dimmer set to CH24 only, so all channels would fire when using ch 24 on the console... This should negate the un-even loading theory would it not ?

I'm baffled too, and I don't get to use it alot, becuase I don't see three phase power alot here.  
Oh well all this might be mute in about 6 months when LED technology catches up and makes a decent Amber/white 3 watt par, and I can leave this crap at the shop...  

[Silas Pradetto]

Shane Presley wrote on Tue, 30 November 2010 14:18

Hey silas - yeah they are set for three phase, and I'm pretty sure I would have gone with the following scheme.  First lug red, next lug black, next lug blue... I'm pretty anal about having everything match, so every dimmer would of been wired the same way.  The other thing, is I was demanding the same amount of output on every channel, at the same time (entire bar of 6 on at once). I was using channels 1 - 23 for the ETC dimmer I had, and 4 x behringer dimmer set to CH24 only, so all channels would fire when using ch 24 on the console... This should negate the un-even loading theory would it not ? I'm baffled too, and I don't get to use it alot, becuase I don't see three phase power alot here.   Oh well all this might be mute in about 6 months when LED technology catches up and makes a decent Amber/white 3 watt par, and I can leave this crap at the shop...

No. What I was experiencing was flicker when the control circuitry was powered from a separate phase than the actual dimmer circuitry. DMX/manual control wouldn't matter. Exactly the same thing as you, I could manually put everything on 100% on the pack and it would sit there flickering away.

Given that the control circuitry in those packs seems kind of sensitive, I'm leaning toward the overheating side of things. It's not like Behringer would ever overbuild anything...

Just make sure you keep those channel pairs together. IIRC, there are jumpers in there that easily fall out and disappear, etc.

[Shane Presley]

I tend to believe that it was from over-heating ( even though the packs fan output was cool. The filter exhhaust areas were dusty but not chocked. I'm going to give them a cleaning, and going over when I get the chance...  Thanks for everyone inputs to date - I know behringer product is often in question, I thought that I a had a decent product from them that would work.. I'm going to re-evaluate their use... Any got a used 24 ch ETC for sale ?

[Alan Hamilton]

I wonder if tight-packing them in the rack contributed to an overheating issue? Also, what is the back of the rack like (filled with rack panels or ventilated in some way)?

The one thing that pulls me away from blaming the dimmers is that (as I read it) all 4 started acting up at once. Even with overheating I'd expect them to not react similarly at the same moment. It wouldn't surprise me to see them all have the same failure mode when overheated, but I wouldn't expect them all to have that happen at once.

I know it's always easy to blame "Behringer" or "Nady" or "ADJ" or whatever just because of reputation but sometimes that's just sloppy troubleshooting.

I'd still be looking for an external trigger.

Is 2ga 75' cable and 100A 3P enough for 24,000W? ...Especially if it's a constant load? Would you potentially be overloading the neutral?

[James Feenstra]

Alan Hamilton wrote on Tue, 30 November 2010 17:27

Is 2ga 75' cable and 100A 3P enough for 24,000W?

barely, if the cable only has 60 degree insulation...it's enough w/ 90 degree insulation though (although still closer to it's capacity than i'd typically recommend)

shane;
you're drawing ~67 amps a leg (at max) and stranded #2 cable is only good for about 80 (w/ 60 degree insulation)

you might consider upgrading to 1/0 or 2/0 so as to reduce the actual temperature of the cable...even though you're not at capacity yet

mind you, this kind of issue doesn't sound like a power issue, more like an actual dimmer issue or a data issue actually...did anything else on the same dmx line have problems, or just the dimmers?

[Shane Presley]

James Feenstra wrote on Tue, 30 November 2010 21:25

Alan Hamilton wrote on Tue, 30 November 2010 17:27 Is 2ga 75' cable and 100A 3P enough for 24,000W? barely, if the cable only has 60 degree insulation...it's enough w/ 90 degree insulation though (although still closer to it's capacity than i'd typically recommend) shane; you're drawing ~67 amps a leg (at max) and stranded #2 cable is only good for about 80 (w/ 60 degree insulation) you might consider upgrading to 1/0 or 2/0 so as to reduce the actual temperature of the cable...even though you're not at capacity yet mind you, this kind of issue doesn't sound like a power issue, more like an actual dimmer issue or a data issue actually...did anything else on the same dmx line have problems, or just the dimmers?

Hey James thanks for checkin in... the feeder is 90 deg jacket, and it was sitting on the plastic "click n lock, covers over and ice surface, so I was confident that it would "keep cool enough for this show"...
hydro inspector stickered and rated this cable for 150 amps so I don't see it having a problem with a 100 full on.

Agreed, but it's entertainment grade 90 deg jacket

I used 4 ott 10' jumper to get from the transformer to the etc sensor, then the 75' run to the behringer, so I don't think it is a feeder issue...

here's the path...
NSI console--25ft DMXcable--ETC sensor rack---75ft dmx cable----Behringer dimmer...

[Shane Presley]

Alan Hamilton wrote on Tue, 30 November 2010 17:27

I wonder if tight-packing them in the rack contributed to an overheating issue? Also, what is the back of the rack like (filled with rack panels or ventilated in some way)? The one thing that pulls me away from blaming the dimmers is that (as I read it) all 4 started acting up at once. Even with overheating I'd expect them to not react similarly at the same moment. It wouldn't surprise me to see them all have the same failure mode when overheated, but I wouldn't expect them all to have that happen at once.

Hey Alan - I wondered about running them all together as well, but you would think they would think that ultimately someone might use them tightly packed, but I hear ya.  Only the bottom four dimmers were on, and it is an open backed rack, becuase I put the socas right on the dimmer pack itself.
They are back to front cooled so I wouldn't think staking them would cause them to over heat, but who knows.... also like I was saying to James, this was in an ice rink , with the ice IN, so the ambiant temp was fairly low ( dimmer friendly if you ask me), so I would of thought cooling would be an issue for either the feeder or the dimmer... but low and behold.... I was wearing my jacket the whole time, and we had a small 15 amp heater keeping our feet warm. Maybe that's what put it over the top for the power...lol

These are the top four dimmers when they were in another rack... they are still on twistlock plugs, whereas the bottom four are hardwaired to the distro in the bottom of the rack....
You can see the soca mounted on the back - so the dimmer is open just like this...

[Silas Pradetto]

James Feenstra wrote on Tue, 30 November 2010 21:25

Alan Hamilton wrote on Tue, 30 November 2010 17:27 Is 2ga 75' cable and 100A 3P enough for 24,000W? barely, if the cable only has 60 degree insulation...it's enough w/ 90 degree insulation though (although still closer to it's capacity than i'd typically recommend) shane; you're drawing ~67 amps a leg (at max) and stranded #2 cable is only good for about 80 (w/ 60 degree insulation) you might consider upgrading to 1/0 or 2/0 so as to reduce the actual temperature of the cable...even though you're not at capacity yet mind you, this kind of issue doesn't sound like a power issue, more like an actual dimmer issue or a data issue actually...did anything else on the same dmx line have problems, or just the dimmers?

James, #2 with 90 degrees C rated insulation is good for 190 amps according to the NEC for non-enclosed wire (aka, individual strands not in a jacket or pipe).

[Silas Pradetto]

Shane Presley wrote on Tue, 30 November 2010 15:49

I tend to believe that it was from over-heating ( even though the packs fan output was cool. The filter exhhaust areas were dusty but not chocked. I'm going to give them a cleaning, and going over when I get the chance...  Thanks for everyone inputs to date - I know behringer product is often in question, I thought that I a had a decent product from them that would work.. I'm going to re-evaluate their use... Any got a used 24 ch ETC for sale ?

I have 24 channels of NSI DDS9800 for sale, they're 2.4k per channel, rack mountable and already have socapex!

[Shane Presley]

Yeah I saw your ad  - I just sold my 4 x LD2400 leprechons. I'm really interested in an ETC 24 ch, 2.4 sensor rack only. It seems to be the choice around here,(and when I say here, I mean the Ottawa area) so cross rentability would be the order of the day....

[Alan Hamilton]

FWIW I wasn't so much thinking about the 2ga going up in flames as I was wondering what the voltage drop would be.

[Shane Presley]

SO just as a follow-up, I used the dimmers again yesterday in a different venue - single phase 100 amp source L1, and L2 lit up.  Tried the dimmer, and it was making that power buzz sound again, and the lights were acting the same way, so now I know the dimmers have issues.  I brought my motion labs distro and plugged in the 4 dimmers above these(they are configured with 30 amp plugs as opposed to direct into the panel in the bottom of the rack. All was good.... wierd that all four dimmers are "pooched" at once...

[James Feenstra]

could it be a data issue with them?

usually a pooched dimmer won't light up at all, not randomly do stuff

[Shane Presley]

Maybe James - but I took the same data/cable path(s), nsi console, and just bounced the soca outputs up to the top 4 dimmers from the bottom, and all was good - so everything outside the dimmer rack is now "out of the trouble shooting loop" if you will.... I'm thinking it's a wiring issue now inside the dimmer, or something "blown" inside , but why all four at once, not sure.. and why all of a sudden - since they were working fine at the dog show, then just at once, decided to "mis behave". More investigation to follow

[James Feenstra]

if there's a data issue with those dimmers changing the socas around won't solve anything

try this;

console -> first problem dimmer -> lights

if the lights have issues swap the dimmer out for another problem dimmer

what it sounds like to me is that the first in your set of 4 is having a data issue and passing it on to the others, as by your explanation, the attached lights are randomly dimming on and off?

that'd indicate a problem somewhere on the control board

switching to manual mode wouldn't over rule this possibility as it's still accessing the control board and if dimmer #1 is the problem dimmer passing information through it (even a passive dmx loop) could result in the corruption being passed on to the next fixture in line

if you add a moving or LED light into the chain after these 4 dimmers, does it respond properly? that'd be a real easy way to see if it was a control issue being passed through the dimmers, and would likely only result in one being shot as opposed to 4

[Shane Presley]

Ya I never thought about of possiblity of ONE control board spewing bad Dmx down the line... I will try this out.
Thanks
SP