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Author Topic: Speaker design project for Pyromusicals  (Read 9378 times)

Charlie Zureki

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Re: Speaker design project for Pyromusicals
« Reply #20 on: November 23, 2010, 06:39:52 pm »

Andrew Gregory wrote on Tue, 23 November 2010 14:47

Chris; Thanks for your thoughts. I understand what you are saying, but I gess I am hung up on the 12" drivers being a compermise or a trade off some how. I do not what to copermise. How many would I need for a football field? I am not convinced thay are the best solution for my applicatoin and am trying to keep all opshoins open at this time. Andy





 Hello Andrew,

 1.)... USE SPELL CHECK!  (it doesn't cost anything)

 2.)  How does Pyro musical program material differ from any other program material for ...say... a Music Act?

 3.)  I'm a bit confused, so maybe you can explain your first post with a bit more clarity.... You wrote that the owner of this Company  has purchased some Eminence Drivers... Why is he so impulsive?  It seems silly to purchase some drivers without any specific plans for them and he seems financially irresponsible.

 4.) You claim he has two different HF drivers and horns? Was he going to purchase any others? Or, did he (you) expect to use only these two drivers to cover a field the size of a football field?  Crowds up to 1000?

 5.) You've been given some excellent advice by some seasoned Pros, yet, with all of the planning, and equipment you're LACKING... you're "hung up on the 12" drivers being a ("compermise") compromise or a trade off some how." ?

  (Labs subs are well designed, an excellent value and proven results)

 The best solution...was to enlist someone that could give you (and the Company Owner) some advice before you started on this road of building a System.


  If you are so critical as to not wanting to compromise, then you need to spend money, and you need to purchase some PROVEN Sound gear. Anything other....will give you poor results and failure.

  Someone needs to stop trying to get something for nothing!

  Hammer

 

 

 

 
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Chris Jensen

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Re: Speaker design project for Pyromusicals
« Reply #21 on: November 23, 2010, 10:33:57 pm »

Andrew, don't think of it as a compromise, think of it as a tool for a job.  Is a 20oz hammer a compromise of a sledge hammer for pounding in nail. I'm not sure if you have done your research on the project.  It would do you well to go back to some of the first posts on here and breeze though the evolution of the LABsub.  It might give you some sub theory in general as many people have had basic inquires about low freq reproduction. In a nutshell the LAB uses 2 12" drivers in a box that is 1/12th of a 27hz horn.  This means you need 12 boxes to make the full horn mouth.  I'm sure someone could chime in and give you an idea of what 12 would do.  I know there have been a few people that have talked about it on here over the years.  The jist of what they said was it was nothing short of awesome.  I think I remember someone once says they did a few thousand with 8 or so outdoors at moderate levels.  Be reminded at the sheer size of a bass horn, they are huge!  Think of it this way cup your hands over your mouth and yell, louder right, how about with a cheer style cone, louder yet.  Have you increased the size of the drive unit?  Nope it's still your voice.

My uneducated pov on the 12" driver is the little bit of power it takes to push it compared to giant 18" drivers is a real advantage.  There used to be a little picture on ServoDrive's site that was a great example of this.  Maybe a little dressed up for marketing but still drove the point home.  It was a few BT7's and the amps all laid out with weight and footprint size with performance vs a heaping pile of 2x18" boxes with the weight in amps and footprint size.  Really made you wonder.

I'm not trying to sell you on anything, more that don't be fooled by size.  Any lab owner would probably go out of their way to give you a demo.  I built one for fun years ago and use it corner loaded in a gym type room underpowered and it is out of this world.  Search for the sub shootouts on here and read some of the info on these things.  The best thing you can know about a horn is that it is different then a reflex box, it isn't about how much power it can take or any of that.  It is about the design and what it is made to do.  The cab itself amplifies the sound to a degree, think the cheer cone again, it is just made to sound correct not like a echo cone.

Ask more generic questions, start without brand names.  Most of these pros on here don't care who makes it or if it can be abbreviated with 3 letters.  They will get the most out of whatever gear they have or are provided with.  Start broad and work down to specific questions.  Be willing to be wrong and willing to be open to something you didn't think of because a lot of the time that is where you end up, somewhere you didn't even think of.  If you want to built speakers Art is probably your man to talk to but be ready for any number of options that aren't even on your map yet.

Chris
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Andrew Gregory

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Re: Speaker design project for Pyromusicals
« Reply #22 on: November 23, 2010, 11:01:59 pm »

Sorry Charlie; I did not mean to get you in a bunch.
As I said I am new here and know I have a lot to learn.
In reply to your points.
1 I have not bin able get spell check to work in IE from the Open Office data base.
2 I dont know how pyro musical program material differs from any other program material, other than a lot of back ground noise.
3 "Why is he so impulsive?" He purchase the speakers under advice of someone that clamed thay knew what thay were doing and is no longer with the company. I am trying to help him pick up the peaces and come up with somthing good.
4 "You claim he has two different HF drivers and horns?" I claimed?
Do you think I am lying? The original plan was to use the two types of HF drivers and two types of LF drivers in 4 or more sets.
5 "You've been given some excellent advice by some seasoned Pros," Yes I know and have had some good offers of assistance
from some nice guys. Most every one agres every speaker disign
is a compromise. Knowing the trade offs will help in getting the right speaker. I am trying to learn about the LAB subs can you help?
Quote:

The best solution...was to enlist someone that could give you (and the Company Owner) some advice before you started on this road of building a System.
I know that and the owner thought he had some good advice, just may not have been the best.
Quote:

If you are so critical as to not wanting to compromise, then you need to spend money
We are willing to spend.
Quote:

Someone needs to stop trying to get something for nothing!

and who would that be?
Thanks Andy
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Andrew Gregory

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Re: Speaker design project for Pyromusicals
« Reply #23 on: November 23, 2010, 11:14:38 pm »

Thanks again Chris; I will spend some more time digging thru the LAB threads, I diffenitly what to learn more about them. Trying to learn as fast as I can so I can make a system this winter. Would you have any links to some good posts for the LAB devlopment? or know ware can I start? Andy
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Charlie Zureki

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Re: Speaker design project for Pyromusicals
« Reply #24 on: November 24, 2010, 07:31:31 am »

Hello Andrew,

 I'm not in a bunch.. but, I do get a bit pissy when someone asks for help, is given practical advice....then disputes the information they're given.

2.) the spell check is at the top of the body (or blank) that you're typing in.

3.) My Pyro-music question was a bit cheeky... I'm guessing that "Pyro-music" does not differ, or require any special system other than what would be required for a Musical Act, other than possibly some extra subs to handle the enhanced low end boom.

4.) Impulsive....doing or saying something without researching the possible consequences.

 When building a speaker box:
 a) Define the Box with the specs you're looking for.
 b) Find the Box with those specs
 c) Buy the Drivers and components to build & load the box

 NOT...Buy drivers and hope to fit them in a box.

 Instead of building a system... (for someone that has NO clue), it is cheaper, less time consuming, more practical and will provide better results to purchase a speaker system.

 Buying used is an excellent alternative when facing money constraints.

 (But, you said that money is not an issue if results can be had...so, why not purchase and know immediate results?)

5.) No, I don't think you're lying about having two different HF drivers. I think you have NO clue as to why this was an important question. Why would you insist on using these two unmatched drivers?  AND..you never mentioned any drivers (or intentions to purchase)  to handle Low & Mid Frequencies.  

 So...your system will only be comprised of HF drivers and Subs?  (I'm guessing not...)

6.) I am (as others) trying to help you, but you don't seem to understand that you're way over your head. If you need immediate results...then buy a complete system off the shelf.  It's cheaper, it's cheaper even if you're not in a hurry.

 Building speaker boxes to fit any resemblance of a functioning, decent sounding system costs money, takes time, and requires patience and a lot of research.

7.) Quoting myself... "Someone needs to stop trying to get something for nothing"....  and quoting you..... "who would that be?"

  I was referring to your boss mostly... HE should have bought a system. He should have paid someone for PROPER ADVICE.  As a "business man" he should have known better...you don't get something for nothing.

 What I don't understand ...is that you seem to be talking out of both sides of your mouth... Sure, everyone wants to save money, but, when you have no clue as to all of the parameters of building any speaker box...then, one would/should purchase.

 And, since you've said money is not a problem ...then buy what you need....and you'll need a lot of speaker boxes to cover 1000 people outdoors.

 Hammer
   

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Andrew Gregory

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Re: Speaker design project for Pyromusicals
« Reply #25 on: November 24, 2010, 10:34:27 am »

Charlie;
The spell check at the top of the blank is not working for me, maybe it needs a "WORD" data base two. I will try and do better.
I know I ask alot of questions but I did not mean to dispute anyone or any of the answers I was given. Sorry if I came off that way. I know I have alot to learn and appreciate your help.
"Pyro-music" should be typical music reproduction, but the setting may differ from a typical live band setting. Mainly dont need to worry about rear cancellation.
Quote:

Impulsive....doing or saying something without researching the possible consequences.
like I said at the time he was going on someone elses word.
Quote:

When building a speaker box:
a) Define the Box with the specs you're looking for.
b) Find the Box with those specs
c) Buy the Drivers and components to build & load the box

Thats what I am trying to do now.
Quote:

Instead of building a system... (for someone that has NO clue), it is cheaper, less time consuming, more practical and will provide better results to purchase a speaker system.

He was told this buy everyone after we fould out. We did not know untill the speakers showed up at the door.
Quote:

(But, you said that money is not an issue if results can be had...so, why not purchase and know immediate results?)
One because he is stuck with the speakers and two I am still trying to learn the best way to go.
Quote:

No, I don't think you're lying about having two different HF drivers. I think you have NO clue as to why this was an important question. Why would you insist on using these two unmatched drivers? AND..you never mentioned any drivers (or intentions to purchase) to handle Low & Mid Frequencies.

I did not "insist" on anything, I just stated what he has. 18" for subs, 15" for mids, 2" and 1" for Highs. If we can use them good. If we decide somthing else is better we will use that and sell the ones he has.
Quote:

 I am (as others) trying to help you, but you don't seem to understand that you're way over your head. If you need immediate results...then buy a complete system off the shelf. It's cheaper, it's cheaper even if you're not in a hurry.

Buying off the shelf would be alot easier for me but not an option.
Quote:

Building speaker boxes to fit any resemblance of a functioning, decent sounding system costs money, takes time, and requires patience and a lot of research.
Which we are willing to do.
Quote:

I was referring to your boss mostly... HE should have bought a system. He should have paid someone for PROPER ADVICE. As a "business man" he should have known better...you don't get something for nothing.
I think he knows that but he got screwed by the guy that started this, we need to pick up the pieces.
Quote:

What I don't understand ...is that you seem to be talking out of both sides of your mouth... Sure, everyone wants to save money, but, when you have no clue as to all of the parameters of building any speaker box...then, one would/should purchase.

both sides of my mouth? Some how I think I can learn! Should I not even try?
Andy
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Charlie Zureki

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Re: Speaker design project for Pyromusicals
« Reply #26 on: November 24, 2010, 01:41:44 pm »

Andrew Gregory wrote on Wed, 24 November 2010 09:34



Quote:

Mainly dont need to worry about rear cancellation
.



  That would be the least of your worries anyhow.





Quote:

One because he is stuck with the speakers and two I am still trying to learn the best way to go.




  We have been trying to tell you the "best way to go".



Quote:

If we decide somthing else is better we will use that and sell the ones he has.

 
   Confused

Quote:

Buying off the shelf would be alot easier for me but not an option.

 
  Either way... you're (boss) going to make a sacrifice.

 
Quote:

I think he knows that but he got screwed by the guy that started this, we need to pick up the pieces.




  Seems like he's either unreasonable and won't face the truth, or that YOU can't be honest with him..? Either way HE LOSES.




both sides of my mouth? Some how I think I can learn! Should I not even try?
Andy[/quote]

   Learning ?... means being able to freely admit that you're over your head (that includes to the "boss" too).

  Learning means...when you ask for opinions and they all start sounding the same....that they're probably very good opinions.

Learning means your course must be flexible and change from time to time in order to meet the most important goal.

  Good Luck,
  Hammer
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Andrew Gregory

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Re: Speaker design project for Pyromusicals
« Reply #27 on: November 24, 2010, 02:58:43 pm »

Charlie Zureki wrote on Wed, 24 November 2010 12:41

Andrew Gregory wrote on Wed, 24 November 2010 09:34



Quote:

Mainly dont need to worry about rear cancellation
.



  That would be the least of your worries anyhow.





Quote:

One because he is stuck with the speakers and two I am still trying to learn the best way to go.




  We have been trying to tell you the "best way to go".



Quote:

If we decide somthing else is better we will use that and sell the ones he has.

 
   Confused

Quote:

Buying off the shelf would be alot easier for me but not an option.

 
  Either way... you're (boss) going to make a sacrifice.

 
Quote:

I think he knows that but he got screwed by the guy that started this, we need to pick up the pieces.




  Seems like he's either unreasonable and won't face the truth, or that YOU can't be honest with him..? Either way HE LOSES.




both sides of my mouth? Some how I think I can learn! Should I not even try?
Andy


   Learning ?... means being able to freely admit that you're over your head (that includes to the "boss" too).

  Learning means...when you ask for opinions and they all start sounding the same....that they're probably very good opinions.

Learning means your course must be flexible and change from time to time in order to meet the most important goal.

  Good Luck,
  Hammer [/quote]
Well thanks for your help, I am learning and I will let you know how I make out. Happy Holidays Andy
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Speaker design project for Pyromusicals
« Reply #28 on: November 25, 2010, 09:40:22 pm »

Andrew Gregory wrote on Tue, 23 November 2010 14:47

Chris; Thanks for your thoughts. I understand what you are saying, but I gess I am hung up on the 12" drivers being a compermise or a trade off some how. I do not what to copermise. How many would I need for a football field? I am not convinced thay are the best solution for my applicatoin and am trying to keep all opshoins open at this time. Andy




Deviating from a proven design is a compromise.  Covering a football field with <40Hz is a formidable task, especially if you want to do it evenly.

Listen to Art.
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Speaker design project for Pyromusicals
« Reply #29 on: November 25, 2010, 10:17:25 pm »

Hi Andrew-

Aside from being penny-wise and pound-foolish, perhaps your employer should consider hiring out sound for his shows.  Sound for fireworks is one of the things we do (but I'm 800 miles away, so I won't be soliciting your RFQ...) and part of why we get hired is so the pyro guys/gals don't have to mess with audio.  It seems to be a sufficient challenge to get the mortar field wired, continuity-checked and then deal with the choreographer's changes to the shoot. "Hey, I brought 8 more 12" shells, put them in cue #341..."

See if you can return the Eminence products your boss got on ill-advice.  Pay the restocking fee or consider selling the lot of them on eBay.

Why?  Because the chances of you learning enough to design an adequate speaker system in the natural life time of a small furry mammal is pretty low.  I'm not saying this to dis you, but pointing out that there are guys who've been doing it for a decade and are still in the early stages of their design careers.

By hiring out, you can listen to a number of systems and observe how they pack, handle, power up, and sound.  You can make an informed decision about how a given model suits (or doesn't suit) your needs.  An alternative is to rent "stacks and racks" from a provider, and apply the same powers of observation.

As a parting question, why is your boss so intent on providing audio?  Has he been burned (no pun intended) by providers hired by his clients?  If so, he needs to understand that there is far more to sound than simply have components in plywood boxes and power amps.... and the failure of the provider to understand those things is likely why he/his clients got short changed in the past.  Coming into audio as a n00b isn't going to enhance his reputation; to the contrary, screwing it up when he does it only leaves him holding the entire bag.  Just some things to think about.

Have fun, good luck.

Tim Mc
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